• Overcoming Impostor Syndrome as a Business Leader
• Building Resilience Through Difficult Business Challenges
• Finding Purpose Beyond Financial Success and Recognition
• Developing Confidence While Leading Growing Businesses
• Managing Financial Pressure During Business Growth
• Why Purpose Matters More Than Traditional Success
• Turning Business Failures Into Valuable Life Lessons
• Balancing Entrepreneurship With Personal Fulfillment
• Using Gratitude During Difficult Times and Challenges
• Choosing Purpose Over Credentials and Conventional Career Paths

• Impostor syndrome affects even highly successful leaders and entrepreneurs.
• True success comes from purpose, not just money or status.
• Business challenges and failures can become powerful learning experiences.
• Financial success alone does not guarantee happiness or fulfillment.
• Gratitude can help people navigate difficult seasons of life.
• Credentials matter less than clarity, experience, and collaboration.
• Entrepreneurs should run toward a purpose, not away from problems.
• Building a business should support both work and personal life.
• Resilience is essential when facing setbacks and uncertainty.
• Leaders grow stronger by embracing vulnerability and self-awareness.

[00:00:00] And we it was really fun. I mean that
[00:00:02] was one of the funnest groups I've ever
[00:00:05] worked with. And um and when he sold he
[00:00:10] was so stressed out he ended up going
[00:00:12] into the hospital.
[00:00:14] He had more money than he could have
[00:00:16] ever ever ever imagined. As much as he
[00:00:20] could when he was 50 probably or even
[00:00:22] 40. But dude, you know, like it's pretty
[00:00:25] amazing. So yeah. So at what point, you
[00:00:27] know, and I I look at Moses was 80 years
[00:00:31] old when he finally came into his real
[00:00:35] calling. They remove all like they put a
[00:00:37] shunt in one side of the your your
[00:00:39] eyeball and a shunt in the other and
[00:00:41] they remove all the vitrius fluid and
[00:00:43] then they put a gas bubble in and then
[00:00:46] guess what? You get to look down at the
[00:00:49] floor for five days. for some people.
[00:00:52] I've had like uh Reebok's founder, his
[00:00:56] wife, I was talking to her, she had this
[00:00:59] happen and she was down for like three
[00:01:00] [music] weeks like that
[00:01:02] >> on top of my salary. [laughter]
[00:01:04] >> And um and not any fault of his own, he
[00:01:07] had to end up closing shop
[00:01:10] >> due to his uh yeah
[00:01:11] >> his clients who screwed him over. And I
[00:01:14] just remember going through all of that
[00:01:15] and I was not happy. I mean, this is,
[00:01:17] you know,
[00:01:18] >> right? He keeps pressing me and finally
[00:01:20] I just said, "Listen, I caught my
[00:01:23] partner in bustling money." And then and
[00:01:26] I was so embarrassed. He goes, "Oh, you
[00:01:28] too. You too." [laughter]
[00:01:31] They're like, "That's what."
[00:01:40] [music]
[00:01:45] [music]
[00:01:46] So today I'm joined with joined by Gary
[00:01:49] Fry. Gary's someone leaders call when
[00:01:50] things get complex, stuck, or quietly
[00:01:53] breaking. Not for hype, not for noise,
[00:01:55] for clarity. If this is your first time
[00:01:57] here, this is Vibe Your Vibe. Every
[00:02:00] voice has a frequency. This show is for
[00:02:02] people who love what they do and for the
[00:02:04] rare few who do it because they have to.
[00:02:06] And I think Gary's one of those guys. Uh
[00:02:09] Gary describes himself as a maggyver for
[00:02:11] CEOs. He helps leaders save money, make
[00:02:13] money, stay out of trouble, and actually
[00:02:15] enjoy the process. That's important. Um,
[00:02:19] today
[00:02:19] >> I just kind of want to focus on what
[00:02:22] that looks like in practice for
[00:02:23] founders, executives who are successful
[00:02:26] on paper but carry doubt, pressure,
[00:02:28] imposttor syndrome that no one else
[00:02:31] sees. A lot of people try to hide that.
[00:02:33] >> And so, let's just start there. And I
[00:02:36] guess what I'd like to do, I'm like
[00:02:38] burying from I had a kind of a little
[00:02:40] set kind of course, but we just run free
[00:02:42] form, so that doesn't matter.
[00:02:44] >> Yeah, I like it.
[00:02:44] >> I got I got his book.
[00:02:46] >> Ah, thanks man.
[00:02:47] >> So the book actually I mean you you
[00:02:50] don't even hardly get into it.
[00:02:52] >> I'm on I'm not even on a page number
[00:02:55] [laughter]
[00:02:56] and this this line I mean I read the
[00:02:58] whole book, but I'm still going back to
[00:03:00] this line. So this line is very
[00:03:01] important. and he's like he like
[00:03:03] delivers it with like a one-two punch
[00:03:04] right here in the beginning. I'm just
[00:03:05] going to read it if that's okay with you
[00:03:07] and then that will kind of get us
[00:03:08] started. Imposttor syndrome left
[00:03:10] unchecked at a minimum can inflict
[00:03:12] unnecessary emotional suffering,
[00:03:14] ratcheted up a notch or two and it can
[00:03:16] sabotage meaningful relationships and or
[00:03:19] careers. Take it to its extreme, it can
[00:03:21] lead to debilitating depression. Wow,
[00:03:24] that really
[00:03:25] >> that really stuck with me.
[00:03:28] >> Um, reading your book and it was nice
[00:03:29] reading I liked how I kind of like how
[00:03:31] you put the book together, right? I
[00:03:33] mean, the first part
[00:03:34] >> is kind of how you can attack this
[00:03:36] imposttor syndrome and then
[00:03:38] >> the last part kind of goes into your
[00:03:40] story which puts a little bit more
[00:03:42] >> I don't know. I felt like I know you
[00:03:45] kind of you know you kind of like
[00:03:47] self-deprecated a little bit like you
[00:03:49] don't have to read that other half if
[00:03:50] you don't want [laughter] to but I mean
[00:03:53] but I but I liked it. I I liked the
[00:03:55] second half. I thought the second half
[00:03:57] actually was good because it kind of it
[00:04:01] you know you kind of in the first part
[00:04:02] talk about kind of the tools. Second
[00:04:04] half kind of put it in practice.
[00:04:06] >> Yeah. Yeah. I it was funny because I
[00:04:09] wrote the second half first and then I
[00:04:12] thought if nothing else my kids will
[00:04:16] understand more of what they experienced
[00:04:19] as kids.
[00:04:20] >> Oh really? That's interesting.
[00:04:23] And we were pretty transparent about
[00:04:27] some of the stuff, but you had to be
[00:04:28] careful like, you know, a fouryear-old
[00:04:32] and seven-year-old don't understand what
[00:04:35] does partner embezzlement mean. You
[00:04:37] know, uh, all they knew was we got moved
[00:04:41] halfway across the country, so I didn't
[00:04:44] destroy my former partner or destroy my
[00:04:48] name if I didn't out him,
[00:04:50] >> right? cuz that's kind of, you know,
[00:04:52] exactly right. You know, even though
[00:04:53] you're the I guess technically the
[00:04:55] victim, right? It's just still
[00:04:58] >> it's uh
[00:05:00] >> probably does it's probably not going to
[00:05:02] look good.
[00:05:03] >> Yeah. I mean, it's like uh a good name
[00:05:06] is to be valued above great riches. I I
[00:05:08] truly believe that. And when I
[00:05:11] discovered that, I mean, that was one of
[00:05:14] many
[00:05:15] that was actually tiddly winks compared
[00:05:18] to some other things that we went
[00:05:19] through. But um you know it was leaving
[00:05:23] my own company that I had turned around
[00:05:25] that had my name on the door. That was
[00:05:28] traumatic. And more importantly than
[00:05:30] that, it was just a a breach of trust of
[00:05:33] somebody that was 20 years older than me
[00:05:35] that I really looked to as kind of a
[00:05:38] father figure. I had a great dad. Uh so
[00:05:41] it wasn't like he was replacing my
[00:05:43] father but he was uh you know was a
[00:05:46] business partner and that betrayal of
[00:05:49] trust was really
[00:05:51] difficult but when your name is on the
[00:05:55] door
[00:05:57] you know and you discover that and I
[00:05:58] caught him twice so it's like you know I
[00:06:01] gave him couple chances and after the
[00:06:03] second chance like all right enough of
[00:06:05] this um you know you got a choice or I
[00:06:09] had a choice which is do I out him? And
[00:06:12] I would have just destroyed the guy's
[00:06:14] life because I'm con like I know that
[00:06:18] his ex-wife was suing him and if she had
[00:06:22] a competent attorney, you know, they
[00:06:24] would have been able to uncover what I
[00:06:26] uncovered very quickly. Um, but that
[00:06:30] wasn't the case. So, and I didn't want
[00:06:33] to destroy him. You know what I realized
[00:06:35] at a very tender age was,
[00:06:38] >> hey, we're all one stupid decision away
[00:06:41] from complete train wreck. And it was a
[00:06:44] a series of dumb decisions, but he made
[00:06:47] one decision like, oh, and it was a ends
[00:06:50] justify the means thing. He, you know,
[00:06:53] it's a long story on and I was just
[00:06:55] caught in the crossfire between him and
[00:06:57] his ex-wife, quite frankly. So, but it
[00:07:00] it was
[00:07:01] >> I had a couple of those myself.
[00:07:03] [snorts] Yeah, I I actually I wrote I
[00:07:06] wrote a check to buy a old partner out a
[00:07:10] I guess I don't know if it was before
[00:07:11] after the divorce.
[00:07:12] >> Oh wow.
[00:07:13] >> And um we kind of had it falling apart
[00:07:16] because of that whole situation.
[00:07:18] >> Yeah.
[00:07:18] >> And and uh we got back together some
[00:07:21] years later and I'm like Yeah. And I I
[00:07:23] paid you back your money and bought you
[00:07:25] out. And he's like what are you talking
[00:07:27] about? I'm like
[00:07:28] >> what?
[00:07:28] >> I sent you I sent you a check and you
[00:07:30] cashed it. I still have the canceled
[00:07:32] check with your signature on. He goes,
[00:07:34] "Let me see that signature."
[00:07:35] >> So I went and took a picture of it. He
[00:07:37] goes, "Dude, that ain't me."
[00:07:40] >> Wow.
[00:07:40] >> He called his ex Satan. He goes, "That's
[00:07:42] Satan signed that." [laughter]
[00:07:44] >> Wow.
[00:07:46] >> Yeah. Can you imagine?
[00:07:48] >> And I was just like, cuz I just kind of
[00:07:50] I just wanted to get out of that whole,
[00:07:52] you know.
[00:07:52] >> Yeah.
[00:07:53] >> The stuff that was going on. I mean he
[00:07:55] he didn't embuzzle but you know we were
[00:07:58] he he decided to take some work outside
[00:08:00] the company and he was getting paid
[00:08:02] directly
[00:08:04] >> and we were still paying him all of his
[00:08:06] benefits and a salary
[00:08:07] >> and failed tell you that
[00:08:09] >> I he didn't fail to tell me I just like
[00:08:11] okay he told me he got the contract I'm
[00:08:13] like okay so you know
[00:08:15] >> where are we sending the invoice to
[00:08:17] where's the contract what's going he go
[00:08:18] oh no this is all going to me and you're
[00:08:20] going to still pay me I'm like
[00:08:22] >> I go we're not making that kind of money
[00:08:24] dude I mean, we're just trying to get
[00:08:25] started here. And right,
[00:08:27] >> you know, and he and he was okay with it
[00:08:29] all. I mean, I I go, I can keep you
[00:08:31] going for a little while in the health
[00:08:32] bennies, but I go, we can't, you know,
[00:08:34] we just can't keep
[00:08:35] >> paying this out. And
[00:08:37] >> and um yeah, so it was kind of similar,
[00:08:40] but different. Did you ever reconcile?
[00:08:44] >> No. Um, what's funny is he he kind of
[00:08:48] smelled that I was on to him and after
[00:08:51] the first time that I caught him, um,
[00:08:54] then what he tried to do is get me into
[00:08:56] a serious non-compete and I I had won a
[00:09:01] big account called British Aerospace and
[00:09:03] it was, you know, a couple million
[00:09:05] dollar account and they had told me,
[00:09:07] they said, "Listen, if you ever leave,
[00:09:11] we ain't staying. We're staying with
[00:09:13] you." you know, like you're the reason.
[00:09:15] And I'm like, well, I'm not planning on
[00:09:17] leaving. My name's on the door. All
[00:09:18] that. And they had said that before I
[00:09:20] caught him the first time. So
[00:09:24] when he tries doing that, I'm like,
[00:09:27] dude, you know, first of all, um, if I
[00:09:31] signed it, they aren't going to stay
[00:09:33] with you, so you aren't going to be able
[00:09:35] to pay me anyway. But I am not going to
[00:09:38] solicit anybody.
[00:09:41] But they are free to do what they're
[00:09:43] going to do. But you you have my word.
[00:09:45] I'm not soliciting anybody.
[00:09:47] I just knew what you know the
[00:09:50] ramifications were of all that.
[00:09:52] >> They actually wrote about that in the
[00:09:53] book. I remember reading about that.
[00:09:54] >> Yeah. Yeah. So,
[00:09:56] but what what you just described like I
[00:10:00] was um I thought I was an idiot. like I
[00:10:05] must be a total village idiot to have
[00:10:07] this go on underneath my nose and not
[00:10:10] suspect it whatever. And I was
[00:10:14] embarrassed,
[00:10:16] you know, painfully embarrassed. And
[00:10:17] when somebody when I had moved to
[00:10:19] Charlotte from Witchah, Kansas,
[00:10:22] somebody's pressing me like, "Why did
[00:10:24] you leave your own firm?" you know, and
[00:10:27] you know, I'm trying to like, well, you
[00:10:29] know, we want to get closer to family
[00:10:31] out on the East Coast and blah blah
[00:10:33] blah. And, you know, Nashville was the
[00:10:35] closest in Atlanta. Uh, they aren't
[00:10:38] necessarily around the block, you know,
[00:10:40] and so he keeps pressing me and finally
[00:10:44] I just said, "Listen, I caught my
[00:10:46] partner in bustling money." And then and
[00:10:49] I was so embarrassed. He goes, "Oh, you
[00:10:52] too? You [laughter] too?" They're like,
[00:10:56] That's weapon number one. Realize you're
[00:10:58] not alone because most of the things
[00:11:00] that we go through as humans, we're not
[00:11:03] the only one. We're not the first one. I
[00:11:05] can guarantee you that. You know, cuz
[00:11:07] Solomon said thousands of years ago,
[00:11:09] there's nothing new under the sun. Well,
[00:11:11] if he said that, you know, 4,000 years
[00:11:13] ago or whatever,
[00:11:14] >> um I pretty much guarantee you, yeah,
[00:11:17] we've we've seen this one before,
[00:11:20] somebody's seen it. And you're not
[00:11:21] alone. And I think that's a huge
[00:11:25] thing to realize um you know when we
[00:11:28] suffer in silence it's kind of our own
[00:11:31] doing but it takes a little courage to
[00:11:34] admit
[00:11:35] and then it's so freeing just like what
[00:11:38] you experienced like hey oh yeah I I
[00:11:40] went through that too
[00:11:43] different circumstances but similar
[00:11:47] sense of betrayal sense of like why what
[00:11:51] happened you you know,
[00:11:52] >> right?
[00:11:53] >> What am I going to do with this?
[00:11:55] >> I I remember I had a kind of talks about
[00:11:59] the other side of this is I remember
[00:12:00] having a client of mine and I actually
[00:12:02] went to work for him, but he he had dug
[00:12:06] himself a pretty deep hole and owed me a
[00:12:08] lot of money.
[00:12:09] >> Yeah.
[00:12:09] >> And um that's part of the reason why he
[00:12:11] hired me. And so he's like, "Look, I I
[00:12:13] can put you on the books, put you on his
[00:12:14] employee, and then I'll pay you, you
[00:12:16] know, it's pretty to get old because
[00:12:17] he's paying me 10 grand a month to get
[00:12:19] caught up."
[00:12:20] >> Yeah. on top of my salary. And um and
[00:12:24] not any fault of his own, he had to end
[00:12:27] up closing shop
[00:12:28] >> due to his uh
[00:12:30] >> yeah,
[00:12:31] >> his clients who screwed him over.
[00:12:34] >> And I just remember going through all of
[00:12:35] that and I was not happy. I mean, this
[00:12:37] is, you know,
[00:12:38] >> right,
[00:12:39] >> this is uh low to mid six figures he
[00:12:42] owed me.
[00:12:43] >> Yeah.
[00:12:43] >> And we're not talking 100,000 like
[00:12:46] >> Right.
[00:12:47] >> We're talking above that. Yeah.
[00:12:50] >> And so
[00:12:52] I finally caught up with him one day cuz
[00:12:54] I mean people were mad. They said he
[00:12:56] took like the last I think he had a
[00:12:58] couple of $500,000 checks that came in
[00:13:00] from clients
[00:13:02] >> and he took them all himself. And I I
[00:13:05] tried to tell people I was like his I
[00:13:07] was probably his only advocate. I said I
[00:13:10] go I go he's trying to keep himself out
[00:13:13] of prison. People I know it sucks not
[00:13:15] getting paid
[00:13:17] >> money that you've earned. He's like he's
[00:13:20] in a different place than you guys are.
[00:13:22] And um this client really, you know, he
[00:13:25] overleveraged him. He was not paying uh
[00:13:29] what's it called? Trust money
[00:13:32] >> to to the IRS
[00:13:34] >> and he owns sales tax money.
[00:13:36] >> So he that'll throw you in prison,
[00:13:38] >> right? It literally it will. And
[00:13:40] >> yeah, I mean any like uh um withholdings
[00:13:44] or that like that will take you to jail,
[00:13:47] right? It's not your money. It's
[00:13:48] straight It's straight up theft
[00:13:50] technically.
[00:13:51] >> And um
[00:13:51] >> unless you're a politician, you know,
[00:13:53] then you won't go to prison. But but if
[00:13:55] you're working schmuck like us, yeah,
[00:13:57] you'll go to prison.
[00:13:58] >> But I but I finally caught up with him
[00:13:59] one day and he was he was like, "So
[00:14:01] you're not angry at me?" I go, "No,
[00:14:03] dude. I'm not angry." I go, "I'm
[00:14:04] disappointed." I go, "Yeah, it sucks not
[00:14:06] getting paid." But I go, "If I was in
[00:14:09] your same shoes, I can't sit and have
[00:14:11] this conversation say I wouldn't have
[00:14:12] done the same thing."
[00:14:14] >> Yeah.
[00:14:14] >> I can't. I go, you know, you're
[00:14:16] backwards against the wall.
[00:14:18] >> You were trying to keep yourself out of
[00:14:19] the prison. You were taking every
[00:14:21] diamond you could because I'm sure
[00:14:22] that's what, you know, we're talking to
[00:14:24] the IRS. That's what I've I've had those
[00:14:26] experiences where, you know, you're
[00:14:28] sitting down across this desk from an
[00:14:30] IRS agent and they're like, "Well, how
[00:14:31] much you got in your bank account,
[00:14:33] >> you know, and I'll never forget this."
[00:14:34] And I go, "I got $16,500."
[00:14:37] She goes, "I need a check right now for
[00:14:39] $16,000."
[00:14:41] >> Oh, no. Before she asked me, she goes,
[00:14:43] "Did you pay all your staff?" I'm like,
[00:14:45] "Yeah, here's the report from paychecks.
[00:14:47] I paid everybody." Like, "Okay." And did
[00:14:49] you pay yourself? I'm like, "Not yet."
[00:14:51] She goes, "Okay." And how much you got
[00:14:53] left? 16,000. And I was like, "Okay, so
[00:14:55] write me a check right now for I go,
[00:14:57] "How am I supposed to get paid?" She
[00:14:58] goes, "Not my problem."
[00:15:01] [laughter]
[00:15:02] >> But, you know, she was real nice to me
[00:15:03] in the end because uh I had a problem
[00:15:05] with an accountant that didn't do the
[00:15:06] job right. Fortunately, it wasn't any
[00:15:09] embezzlement or anything. this didn't do
[00:15:11] I thought they had more money than what
[00:15:12] I had was at the end of the day.
[00:15:14] >> Yeah.
[00:15:15] >> And um
[00:15:16] >> and uh so uh I hired a new accountant
[00:15:20] and he told me I said, "Well, I got
[00:15:22] this, you know, they want to meet with
[00:15:23] me." And I go, "Can you come along?"
[00:15:24] He's like, "No, you don't want me to
[00:15:26] come along." And I told that to the
[00:15:28] agent. She's like, "Yeah, he's right."
[00:15:30] She goes, "You don't know how many times
[00:15:31] these tax attorneys come in here and
[00:15:32] think they're going to throw their
[00:15:33] weight around, try to earn their
[00:15:34] multiple$100 hourly rate?" She goes,
[00:15:37] "They got another thing coming."
[00:15:39] >> Yeah. She was funny at the end. She was
[00:15:41] funny. But we made it through that. But
[00:15:43] anyway, I had a I had a conversation
[00:15:44] with this guy and you know, I told him I
[00:15:47] disappointed. I go, "I wish you would
[00:15:48] have just kept I go, you could have kept
[00:15:49] the business going. Maybe, you know,
[00:15:51] instead of making
[00:15:52] >> 15 million a year, you're only making a
[00:15:54] million a year and you could maybe paid
[00:15:55] me, I don't know, a couple thousand a
[00:15:56] year and eventually got me paid off."
[00:15:58] >> And I go, "But, you know, I know you
[00:16:00] didn't." And he's like, "Oh, wow. Well,
[00:16:01] that's actually good to hear." And I go,
[00:16:03] "Dude, I don't hate you, man." I go,
[00:16:05] "Yeah, you know, I don't know very many
[00:16:07] people that could have lasted." And it
[00:16:08] was just really sad. It's actually
[00:16:10] really sad because
[00:16:11] >> that man died at the age of 58.
[00:16:13] >> Wow.
[00:16:13] >> And I truly believe,
[00:16:15] >> you know, you're talking about all this
[00:16:16] stuff. I just I you know, I think I
[00:16:18] think the stress, the depression.
[00:16:21] >> Oh, it'll eat you alive, man.
[00:16:23] >> And I don't I don't think he offed
[00:16:25] himself. I just think I just think he he
[00:16:27] just had too much. I don't know the
[00:16:29] actual details of his death cuz it's
[00:16:31] kind of quiet due to the circumstances
[00:16:33] and I had lost contact with him. But I'm
[00:16:35] at least glad that I had the
[00:16:36] conversation I had
[00:16:38] >> so that we cleared the air and
[00:16:41] reconciled, you know, cuz I didn't hate
[00:16:43] him. I just I hated what he
[00:16:45] >> what happened, I guess. wouldn't even
[00:16:46] mean what he did. I mean,
[00:16:48] >> yeah,
[00:16:48] >> a lot of people put in those same kind
[00:16:50] of circumstances when you have a major
[00:16:53] client that didn't cuz he got a major
[00:16:55] client really
[00:16:58] led him down the primrose path and then
[00:17:00] pulled the rug out from underneath him.
[00:17:02] You know, he spent hundreds of thousands
[00:17:03] of dollars expanding his business and
[00:17:05] then they said, "Oh, you know what?
[00:17:06] Oops. Uh, you know, signed a long-term
[00:17:08] five-year contract and said, oops. Uh,
[00:17:10] no, we're not going to do that. We
[00:17:11] cancel the contract. Thank you very
[00:17:14] much. [laughter]
[00:17:16] >> Yeah.
[00:17:17] >> You know, and I mentioned that story
[00:17:19] because one of the things that you do is
[00:17:20] you're the maggyver of CEOs. And so I'm
[00:17:22] curious, have you ran into situations
[00:17:24] where people are like
[00:17:26] >> they've expanded their company,
[00:17:27] everything's looked great. They got the
[00:17:28] contracts to show that
[00:17:30] >> they got the income coming in where it
[00:17:32] makes sense to expand. And the next
[00:17:33] thing you know, boom,
[00:17:35] >> those companies that signed those
[00:17:36] contracts said, "You know what? No,
[00:17:38] we're not doing that anymore. See you
[00:17:39] later. Goodbye."
[00:17:41] >> Yeah. That's called concentration risk,
[00:17:43] man. You know, when you got too much
[00:17:47] wound up in one company
[00:17:50] and uh diversification's you're
[00:17:52] definitely your friend. It's
[00:17:54] interesting. I was coaching a a guy that
[00:17:57] had a um soil erosion control company
[00:18:01] and this guy his story like one of the
[00:18:04] reasons that we I love our podcast
[00:18:06] called the Anything But Typical podcast
[00:18:08] is because we have these stories of
[00:18:10] people that are business owners then
[00:18:13] entrepreneurs that have humility.
[00:18:14] They're willing to talk about the hard
[00:18:17] times, the difficult times, the lonely
[00:18:19] times because it's lonely, man. And the
[00:18:22] bigger the company, the more lonely it
[00:18:24] gets because you can't trust anybody,
[00:18:26] man. Like, you know, why are you hanging
[00:18:28] around me? You don't know if it's really
[00:18:30] because of you or it's really because of
[00:18:32] your power and influence. I mean, you
[00:18:34] really don't know. [snorts] And so
[00:18:38] anyway, uh we're looking at his and he
[00:18:42] had grown this thing from nothing. I
[00:18:44] mean, literally, he barely finished high
[00:18:47] school, got fired from the Hardies, and
[00:18:50] he started his company picking up trash
[00:18:54] on work sites, literally.
[00:18:57] >> Wow. That was the start of it.
[00:18:59] >> That was the start of it.
[00:19:01] >> Picking up trash.
[00:19:02] >> Picking up trash.
[00:19:03] >> One one employee himself.
[00:19:06] >> Yeah. Him. And then he he and his wife
[00:19:08] lived in a tent in the woods for a while
[00:19:12] because like his story incredible.
[00:19:15] [snorts]
[00:19:16] >> Uh Philip Laneir and he's written about
[00:19:18] it. He's he came out with a book
[00:19:19] recently. It's just really cool.
[00:19:21] >> What's the name of the book?
[00:19:22] >> I think it's like no college no problem
[00:19:25] or something like that.
[00:19:26] >> Okay. I like it.
[00:19:27] >> Philip Laneir. Uh he lives down
[00:19:30] >> that probably resonated with you because
[00:19:33] >> I read about that as well in your book.
[00:19:35] I and I I loved this guy from the time
[00:19:37] that I met him. Um,
[00:19:39] >> and by the way, college doesn't mean a
[00:19:41] thing. Don't worry about it.
[00:19:42] >> Yeah. Well, [laughter]
[00:19:44] in two Fortune 100 companies, I didn't
[00:19:47] know that because I was embarrassed and
[00:19:49] I was the only one that I knew of that
[00:19:52] had been a college dropout that was in
[00:19:54] my
[00:19:56] uh strata, if you will. And so anyway,
[00:19:59] one of the things that after we started
[00:20:01] working with him,
[00:20:03] um, we looked and one of his his largest
[00:20:07] clients, so big home builders,
[00:20:10] uh, he had over 25% of his all of his
[00:20:13] income tied to this one builder and
[00:20:18] helped him get a a really good CFO in
[00:20:21] place who is really good started. And I
[00:20:24] said, "Man, we need to do some analysis
[00:20:26] on like let's see your profitability by
[00:20:29] customer because you got concentration
[00:20:31] risk." Well, what he found was
[00:20:34] um he was paying $35,
[00:20:37] losing $35 for every invoice that he
[00:20:40] sent to this large company. And he was I
[00:20:44] said, "Dude, you got to raise your
[00:20:46] prices." Like, and he goes, "I'm afraid
[00:20:47] they're going to go." I said, "They will
[00:20:49] give you a raise if they leave." you
[00:20:52] know, like and they were really really
[00:20:55] >> he was and he was large enough he could
[00:20:56] actually probably lose them.
[00:20:58] >> Yeah, he could, but he was terrified. He
[00:21:00] was he was afraid
[00:21:01] >> to this 25% cut in revenue. Yeah,
[00:21:04] >> because a lot of business owners look at
[00:21:06] topline and they think, hey, look how
[00:21:08] great I'm doing, but it's like, hey, but
[00:21:10] how much bottom line? You know, if
[00:21:12] you're losing money on everyone, you
[00:21:14] need to stop the hemorrhaging cuz
[00:21:16] growing will kill you.
[00:21:17] >> [snorts]
[00:21:18] >> So, um, sure. And like he was about
[00:21:20] ready to throw up when he went in to
[00:21:22] meet with these guys. He calls me.
[00:21:24] [laughter]
[00:21:25] He's like, "Man," I go, "Dude, you've
[00:21:26] got the numbers.
[00:21:29] Where are they going to go?" Yeah,
[00:21:30] there's some cheaper alternatives out
[00:21:32] there, but you know that you kill them
[00:21:35] with service. You've got way better
[00:21:38] operations. You're dependable. You say
[00:21:41] you you do what you say you're going to
[00:21:43] do. So he goes in and you know they they
[00:21:46] weren't happy about it but I said tell
[00:21:48] them you know like what good am I if I
[00:21:50] go out of business.
[00:21:53] Oh hey the prices were so great we loved
[00:21:56] them until they went out of business and
[00:21:59] but it was just so cool to see
[00:22:02] and that that's actually where
[00:22:04] >> and what happened does he share that in
[00:22:06] what happened with these guys? Oh yeah,
[00:22:08] they got him. And and he he what's
[00:22:10] what's interesting, so about four years
[00:22:12] ago, he sold his company. And when I
[00:22:15] first met him, he had an offer for about
[00:22:17] a fourth of what he ended up selling
[00:22:20] for. And I said, "Well, what are you
[00:22:23] going to do?" You know, like because
[00:22:26] it's more money than he had ever had,
[00:22:28] but I'm like, "It's not going to be
[00:22:30] enough. You're still young. It's not
[00:22:32] going to take you through. You know,
[00:22:34] what are you gonna do?"
[00:22:36] >> Right? you know, you you still got to do
[00:22:38] something. It's, you know, it's not like
[00:22:40] you got a hundred million bucks and you
[00:22:41] got to figure out
[00:22:42] >> wise advice. Even if you had a 100
[00:22:45] million bucks, you still have to do
[00:22:46] something.
[00:22:46] >> You got to do something, man. We were
[00:22:48] made for purpose, you know? And so I
[00:22:50] said, "So what?" I said, "Are you
[00:22:52] running to something or are you running
[00:22:53] from something?" That was one of the
[00:22:55] best questions I ever had from my best.
[00:22:57] >> Wow. Wow.
[00:22:59] >> Are you running to something or running?
[00:23:02] >> Well, only you can answer that.
[00:23:05] And so he goes, "Well, you know, um
[00:23:10] I I don't know." I said, he he goes,
[00:23:12] "And so he starts talking about how he
[00:23:14] hates debt and, you know, he had
[00:23:16] millions of dollars in equipment and
[00:23:18] with hydro seeders cuz he was doing big
[00:23:22] DOT stuff and whatever. He hated that."
[00:23:25] And he had he was a big Dave Ramsey guy,
[00:23:28] like no debt, blah blah blah. And so he
[00:23:31] was like living under this, you know,
[00:23:33] cloud of guilt, you know, well, not all
[00:23:36] debt is bad. I I get it, but and Dave
[00:23:40] Ramsey really helped him, you know, get
[00:23:42] his financial house in order. So I'm
[00:23:45] hearing all these difficulties. And I
[00:23:47] said, but what are you going to do? And
[00:23:49] I said, 'What would you do? And he said,
[00:23:50] 'Well, I' I'd love to build a tiny house
[00:23:53] community for the working poor. I go, I
[00:23:56] think that's really cool, but that's not
[00:23:57] going to make any money. Now what? I
[00:24:00] mean, that's a great thing, but now
[00:24:02] what? And he just couldn't. He was
[00:24:05] stumped. And I said, "It sounds to me
[00:24:06] like you're running from something
[00:24:07] instead of running to something." Like,
[00:24:10] yeah. And he said, "Well, will you work
[00:24:13] with me?" And I said, "No, I won't. As
[00:24:15] long as you're entertaining offers
[00:24:17] because your team feels you pulling away
[00:24:22] whether you think that they do or not.
[00:24:25] You're a fully engaged person.
[00:24:29] But they can sense it. I can guarantee
[00:24:31] you. And I never met his team. You know,
[00:24:33] he had a hund some people at that time,
[00:24:35] I guess. And so then he called me a few
[00:24:38] I said, "If you like shut the door on
[00:24:41] offers and you really want to get
[00:24:43] serious about growing this thing, then
[00:24:45] you call me and we'll get to work." And
[00:24:48] I needed the money, man. I mean, I
[00:24:50] really did. But I was not going to take
[00:24:52] his money if I can't start something
[00:24:54] that we can finish. So we did. And we it
[00:24:58] was really fun. I mean that was one of
[00:25:00] the funnest groups I've ever worked
[00:25:02] with. And um and when he sold he was so
[00:25:07] stressed out he ended up going into the
[00:25:09] hospital.
[00:25:11] He had more money than he could have
[00:25:13] ever ever ever imagined.
[00:25:17] You know it was
[00:25:17] >> Had the financials changed much in the
[00:25:19] time that he had the first offer to the
[00:25:21] >> Yeah. Oh yeah. Like we helped him
[00:25:23] quadruple his bottom line and triple his
[00:25:25] topline, you know. So,
[00:25:26] >> okay.
[00:25:27] >> Um, yeah. And and he had it going, but
[00:25:30] you know, there was recessionary winds,
[00:25:34] war drums banging a little bit, you
[00:25:36] know, it's like kind of during the Biden
[00:25:38] switch over and, you know, regulations
[00:25:41] are going to get heavier and blah blah
[00:25:43] blah. And so, um, he ended up having an
[00:25:46] offer that was just too good to be true.
[00:25:48] But, like, it took him a while to figure
[00:25:52] out, okay, so what am I going to do, you
[00:25:55] know?
[00:25:56] and um and now he's kind of got his
[00:25:59] wings underneath wind underneath his
[00:26:01] wings again and it's really fun to see
[00:26:03] him. But it's it like I've seen that
[00:26:06] many many times where guys get a pot of
[00:26:10] money and they hit success cuz they've
[00:26:13] been working so hard and then after
[00:26:15] they've taken one too many vacations or
[00:26:18] played one too many rounds of golf and
[00:26:20] they're bored off of their gourd and
[00:26:22] they're driving their spouse crazy
[00:26:24] because all of a sudden they're hanging
[00:26:26] around home and you know it was the
[00:26:29] spouse's domain and now all of a sudden
[00:26:32] what are you doing invading MySpace?
[00:26:35] Um, I mean, I know guys that have killed
[00:26:38] themselves because of it. It's like,
[00:26:40] >> oh, really?
[00:26:40] >> Oh, yeah. I mean, this is not this is no
[00:26:43] joke.
[00:26:43] >> Yeah. Money money money doesn't solve
[00:26:45] all problems like that. I' I've known,
[00:26:48] unfortunately, I've had friends that
[00:26:49] are, you know, well into uh I guess what
[00:26:53] do you call it? Seven figures. And uh
[00:26:55] still
[00:26:57] >> they're, you know, I don't want to go
[00:26:59] another day, Kirk. And I'm just like I
[00:27:01] don't understand it. It's hard for me to
[00:27:03] even wrap my head around it.
[00:27:04] >> Yeah.
[00:27:05] >> The one thing that I have learned is
[00:27:06] that it doesn't solve all the problems.
[00:27:08] I think who is it?
[00:27:10] >> Um Dr. Murray Banks. He's like um money
[00:27:14] how does it says uh money won't make you
[00:27:18] happy but it can make you comfortable
[00:27:21] so you can be be miserable but
[00:27:23] comfortable or something. He has a joke.
[00:27:25] I don't know if you heard of Dr. Murray
[00:27:27] Banks. He's pretty funny about that.
[00:27:29] >> But that's so true. Like
[00:27:32] I don't like we are comforting people. I
[00:27:35] am guilty comfort seeeking person. But
[00:27:38] I've also realized wait a minute you
[00:27:41] know
[00:27:43] comfort doesn't make us stronger.
[00:27:46] It it just doesn't um it makes us
[00:27:49] atrophy. And when I was
[00:27:52] >> Why is that? Cuz it's really strange
[00:27:53] phenomenon, right? I mean that's kind of
[00:27:55] I mean for me um like I told I think I
[00:27:59] sent you a text. I was feeling a little
[00:28:00] under the weather last couple days, so I
[00:28:02] didn't plunge today. But that's kind of
[00:28:04] my thing. I mean, I just I like I want
[00:28:06] to go get my coffee and I'll get my
[00:28:08] coffee and I'm reaching for that cup.
[00:28:09] I'm like, "Dude, you just need to go do
[00:28:11] it. Stop being
[00:28:13] >> Yeah. Stop being a [ __ ] and just get
[00:28:15] [laughter] in there." And I think that's
[00:28:18] part of it for me. I don't know about
[00:28:19] you, but for me, that's kind of just
[00:28:21] part of it is kind of like kind of like
[00:28:23] um who was the guy that wrote the book?
[00:28:25] Uh the captain guy. I think he was in
[00:28:28] the Navy, you know, first thing you do
[00:28:30] is you make your bed.
[00:28:31] >> Oh, yes.
[00:28:32] >> It's like you just start
[00:28:33] >> you start the day, you know, checking
[00:28:35] off successes. And if you can check off
[00:28:37] a few successes in the morning, it's
[00:28:39] just like it just sets the tone for the
[00:28:41] entire day. At least that's my feeling.
[00:28:42] I don't know. Do you do it in the
[00:28:44] morning or do you Is that when you do
[00:28:45] it?
[00:28:46] >> It depends. Um, I did until I started
[00:28:50] reading more research about
[00:28:53] like if you're going to lift weights or
[00:28:55] like I and I don't do a lot of
[00:28:57] weightlifting anymore, but I do a lot of
[00:29:00] pull-ups and push-ups and stuff like
[00:29:01] that and some kettle bells and whatever,
[00:29:04] but you need at least four hours,
[00:29:07] >> right,
[00:29:07] >> for your your body to, you know, let
[00:29:10] that natural inflammation do its job
[00:29:14] because otherwise the cold plunge will
[00:29:16] actually work against you. And I didn't
[00:29:17] realize that. I didn't know that. So,
[00:29:20] um, typically I wait and when I do my
[00:29:23] cold plunge musing once a a week where
[00:29:26] I'm, you know, getting in there and
[00:29:27] talking. Um, it that does get your mind
[00:29:31] off of how freaking cold you are. Um, so
[00:29:34] >> I've done a few phone calls while people
[00:29:36] like, "What are you doing?" I'm go, "I'm
[00:29:37] my cold." [laughter]
[00:29:40] >> It makes the time go way faster.
[00:29:42] >> But you're down to 30. Did you You're
[00:29:44] down to 33 degrees when you're doing it
[00:29:46] now.
[00:29:47] Oh, yeah. It was like I was peeling ice
[00:29:49] off on Sunday, but you know, I I removed
[00:29:52] my chiller cuz my chiller will take it
[00:29:54] down to 39.
[00:29:56] Um, and I'd been covering it up and
[00:29:59] whatever, but when it gets down to 9°
[00:30:01] and we were at 914, like there's no way
[00:30:05] I could keep that thing warm enough and
[00:30:07] not have the lines break.
[00:30:09] >> So, I unhooked my chiller
[00:30:12] >> and knew that it's going to get cold.
[00:30:14] Sure. Like as long as it doesn't turn in
[00:30:16] into a big old tub of solid ice, which
[00:30:19] it won't cuz it's got, you know, I've
[00:30:21] got clarifier and hydrogen peroxide in
[00:30:25] there and whatever, right?
[00:30:26] >> But um anyway, yeah. But
[00:30:30] >> 33 degrees. Wow. So, how long are you
[00:30:31] doing 33 degrees for?
[00:30:33] >> That was five five minutes.
[00:30:35] >> Five minutes. Wow. Is that kind of like
[00:30:37] the I mean, after five minutes, it's
[00:30:39] just not really worth it.
[00:30:42] >> Yeah. they from I mean they keep coming
[00:30:44] out with a little bit more details and I
[00:30:47] think they're still learning quite
[00:30:49] frankly but you know they say and quite
[00:30:51] frankly you know the ideal temperature
[00:30:54] is warmer than 33 I think it's closer to
[00:30:58] 46 up to 50
[00:31:00] um so I think there's still you know
[00:31:03] conflicting thoughts about that
[00:31:05] typically in the summer I'll keep it
[00:31:06] around 42 39 to 42
[00:31:10] but
[00:31:11] >> when you go in are you shivering.
[00:31:14] >> No, cuz I'm I'm I'm like
[00:31:16] >> you're so acclimated to it.
[00:31:17] >> What I've done, like what I'll do is
[00:31:19] I'll do a run or like I was shoveling
[00:31:22] snow
[00:31:24] like an unusual snow in Charlotte and I
[00:31:26] was shoveling all day on Sunday
[00:31:28] afternoon. Um so I thought, well, I got
[00:31:31] to get this cold plunge in. And so, uh I
[00:31:34] was warm already, so that's good. And
[00:31:36] then I just have a towel around me while
[00:31:38] I'm taking off the cover and all that.
[00:31:39] And I've got insulation like it's
[00:31:41] insulated blanket around it and on top.
[00:31:44] Um so then you know fire up the tripod.
[00:31:48] And here's here's the funny reason that
[00:31:50] I started doing this. So my son who has
[00:31:52] a shoe company called Flux Footwear, he
[00:31:55] launched it uh about 5 years ago, but uh
[00:31:59] two years ago, a little over two years
[00:32:01] ago, he said, and he's in Denver,
[00:32:03] Colorado. He said, "Dad, I'm sending you
[00:32:05] a present. You got to try it one time
[00:32:07] and you got to video yourself doing it."
[00:32:09] And I'm thinking, "Oh man, what in the
[00:32:11] world?" My wife was a little nervous and
[00:32:13] I said, "I think it's a cold plunge."
[00:32:15] And sure enough, he sent me a cheapy,
[00:32:17] like a $60 cold plunge. So,
[00:32:20] [clears throat]
[00:32:21] I do it and it was 52° water coming out
[00:32:24] of the tap and it seized my like body. I
[00:32:28] was like, "What are you doing, Zach?"
[00:32:32] You know? [laughter] And so I sent him
[00:32:34] the and I think I made it 2 minutes, but
[00:32:37] like I'm like, "Oh,
[00:32:38] >> oh wow,
[00:32:39] >> Zach."
[00:32:40] >> So the next day I'm going out and I'm
[00:32:43] setting it up cuz it's in January
[00:32:46] and so it's cold, but it you know, it
[00:32:49] doesn't snow much here in Charlotte. You
[00:32:51] know, it's it's an anomaly. So, but it
[00:32:54] was cold and my wife sees me setting up
[00:32:57] a tripod for my phone and she goes,
[00:32:59] "What are you doing?" And I said, "I'm
[00:33:01] going to video myself. I'm not doing a
[00:33:03] one and done on this thing." And she
[00:33:06] goes, "But why are you setting it up?"
[00:33:07] And I said, "What I found is like if I'm
[00:33:09] talking and I'm focused on something
[00:33:12] besides that, I can't feel my fingers
[00:33:14] and my toes cuz those are the
[00:33:16] extremities that like go the fastest."
[00:33:19] Um, I said it it just helps. So then it
[00:33:22] just became this thing and I thought,
[00:33:25] I'm going to just throw it up on
[00:33:27] LinkedIn. I don't care. And it's become
[00:33:30] this thing. Now, is it a cult following?
[00:33:32] No. And I'm not doing it for that
[00:33:34] reason. But I'm thinking it gets my mind
[00:33:37] like I have to focus.
[00:33:39] That's a really good thing. I have to
[00:33:41] focus on what do I want to talk about
[00:33:43] and not just like jibber jabber
[00:33:46] and it's just been a fun and it doesn't
[00:33:49] matter how prepared you are when you hit
[00:33:51] that water. [laughter]
[00:33:55] >> It's just Yeah. [laughter]
[00:33:57] And my my mother-in-law came out one day
[00:33:59] and saw me doing that. She like, "So,
[00:34:01] does that feel good?" And I'm like, "No,
[00:34:03] >> never." [laughter]
[00:34:08] >> I find for me though, I'm wanting to get
[00:34:10] a I'm wanting to get more of a elongated
[00:34:13] tub. I actually have one a friend of
[00:34:15] mine gave me. It was He got a new tub
[00:34:17] for his bathroom from Amazon. Had a
[00:34:18] crack in it.
[00:34:20] >> Oh, yeah. I uh I just put tape over it
[00:34:22] and that's what I used initially with
[00:34:24] just ice.
[00:34:25] >> Yeah. And um but I just had down here in
[00:34:27] South Florida, it just it was hard to
[00:34:28] get me past 55°. It just took so much
[00:34:31] ice
[00:34:32] >> and that's why I ended up get you know,
[00:34:34] you sent me the link and I got that
[00:34:35] >> Oh, yeah. Did you get the
[00:34:38] >> All right.
[00:34:39] >> I got the whatever they Yeah. I actually
[00:34:41] called them and um confirmed they you
[00:34:44] know they I had to get the more
[00:34:45] expensive one because they're like if
[00:34:47] you got the regular one, it's just not
[00:34:48] going to chill it.
[00:34:49] >> No. Yeah. Yeah. So you got to have a
[00:34:52] half horse. It's the thicker It's the
[00:34:54] thicker walled tub. And I actually just
[00:34:57] went out and got a piece of I think it's
[00:34:59] like 2 in foam insulating foam. Cut a
[00:35:02] circle and it sits on top.
[00:35:04] >> Oh, sure.
[00:35:05] >> And um
[00:35:06] >> so like I said, I'm down. I'm down to
[00:35:08] like 4950 right now. Yeah.
[00:35:10] >> And what you were saying, that's
[00:35:11] probably maybe even the sweet spot. I
[00:35:13] don't know.
[00:35:13] >> I think you probably are. do some
[00:35:16] additional googling and and if chat GPT
[00:35:19] just you know say cite the source
[00:35:21] otherwise it'll hallucinate.
[00:35:23] >> Oh yeah, trust me. I'm always like I'm
[00:35:25] like you're hallucinating. Give me the
[00:35:27] source.
[00:35:28] >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the source will
[00:35:31] stump it. Uh yeah,
[00:35:32] >> I like to warm up in my pool though. My
[00:35:34] pool runs anywhere from like 68 to 72.
[00:35:38] >> Oh yeah. And so after I get done five
[00:35:40] minutes there, I do another five minutes
[00:35:42] and and the I mean technically nobody I
[00:35:44] know would swim in that water, but it
[00:35:46] actually feels good. And what I find
[00:35:48] that's really nice for me is um
[00:35:51] >> I can put my face in then
[00:35:54] >> and the water and the cool I mean it's
[00:35:56] not the plunge water, but it's the cool
[00:35:58] water and it feels it actually feels
[00:36:00] good. I just find that it's hard to get
[00:36:03] like your armpits and then behind my
[00:36:06] knees with getting in that smaller tub.
[00:36:09] >> I just find it hard to get those cooled
[00:36:11] down because I mean if you don't get
[00:36:13] those cool, you're you're not really
[00:36:14] getting cooled down. You know, those are
[00:36:16] like I guess you got
[00:36:17] >> major blood vessels going through those
[00:36:19] joints or parts
[00:36:21] >> of your body.
[00:36:23] >> I find myself
[00:36:24] >> I usually kind of sit with my arms kind
[00:36:26] of up.
[00:36:27] >> Yeah. And then and I spread my fingers
[00:36:28] out. I was reading something. There's
[00:36:30] like a I don't know if I don't want to
[00:36:32] call it a film cuz it's not a film, but
[00:36:35] there's like this if you don't move.
[00:36:37] >> Yes.
[00:36:38] >> There's some kind of warmth that it
[00:36:40] keeps you warm.
[00:36:41] >> Yeah, that's that's exactly right. And
[00:36:43] they do have little water circulation
[00:36:46] things that you can get for the uh ice
[00:36:49] pod as well. Um
[00:36:51] >> Oh, really? to to to make it even though
[00:36:54] it's cold, you're actually
[00:36:56] >> Yeah. you know, you can actually be, you
[00:36:59] know, I don't know how much warmer it is
[00:37:01] by not moving. So, now I kind of move a
[00:37:03] little bit while I'm in there.
[00:37:05] >> Smart. Yeah.
[00:37:06] >> And move my legs around. But, uh, yeah.
[00:37:09] So, I don't know. I really like it.
[00:37:10] Thanks for, uh, thanks for encouraging
[00:37:14] me to do that cuz, uh, I don't know. I I
[00:37:18] I think there's a lot of benefits that
[00:37:19] you can't even imagine from it. Um, I'm
[00:37:23] not sure how good it is for women. My my
[00:37:25] wife has done the old chat GPT thing.
[00:37:26] She's like, "It's not good for women."
[00:37:28] >> Well, yeah.
[00:37:30] >> So, she's like, "I'm not doing that."
[00:37:32] >> I [snorts] I
[00:37:33] >> She does a cold shower though. She does
[00:37:35] do a cold shower, which I don't know
[00:37:36] what our shower temperature water is,
[00:37:38] but
[00:37:40] >> it's got I guess that's what prompted me
[00:37:42] is I don't know how you I guess you just
[00:37:44] started cold turkey then, no pun
[00:37:46] intended.
[00:37:47] >> Uh I
[00:37:48] >> with your gift. Yeah, because he sent it
[00:37:52] to me and I'm like, I'm up for a
[00:37:54] challenge. All right, challenge
[00:37:56] accepted, Zach. Let's do it. Um, you
[00:37:59] know, because
[00:38:00] >> for me it was the cold showers. They
[00:38:02] just didn't feel cold anymore. I get
[00:38:03] into my cold shower down here in South
[00:38:05] Florida and it just was like, well, this
[00:38:07] is just
[00:38:08] >> room temperature. This doesn't feel like
[00:38:10] anything.
[00:38:11] >> When I first did it, it was freezing.
[00:38:13] Believe it or not, when I first started
[00:38:14] doing cold showers, I didn't want to
[00:38:16] take a cold shower,
[00:38:17] >> right? And this is the same water
[00:38:19] temperature as it's always been.
[00:38:21] [laughter] Now it's like nothing. It's
[00:38:22] weird. It's just like it like
[00:38:23] accumulates over time.
[00:38:25] >> Your body does get used to it. That's
[00:38:27] for sure. Um
[00:38:29] >> Yeah.
[00:38:30] >> Have you experienced where you've had
[00:38:31] maybe a one or two week break and then
[00:38:33] you go back in
[00:38:35] >> and I had to do it for months uh without
[00:38:39] it because I had I've had seven eye
[00:38:42] surgeries in the last two years. But uh
[00:38:46] during a one-year period, five eye
[00:38:49] surgeries
[00:38:51] and um you know vascular constriction
[00:38:55] cuz it was retina uh I had retina
[00:38:58] detachment
[00:38:59] and so that's when I started doing a not
[00:39:01] so cold plunge musing. So I had done
[00:39:04] like 60 cold plunge musings and then uh
[00:39:09] I couldn't do it. So, I'm like, well,
[00:39:10] I'm going to keep my cold plunge clean
[00:39:13] and keep water in it and keep that thing
[00:39:15] moving. See, whenever I get cleared to
[00:39:17] do it. So, yeah, I went without. Um, and
[00:39:21] so when I was finally cleared to go back
[00:39:24] in,
[00:39:26] um, I'm like, "All right." And, you
[00:39:29] know, it wasn't the same as the first
[00:39:32] time. Like, your body does get used to,
[00:39:35] >> right? But it still is probably felt
[00:39:37] colder than the last time.
[00:39:39] >> Yeah. Yeah, I think I think it did. Um,
[00:39:42] you know, but your your body acclimates
[00:39:44] pretty.
[00:39:44] >> And by the way, let's just let's just
[00:39:46] call this out. So Gary had these eye
[00:39:48] surgeries and he couldn't put his face
[00:39:50] in. That actually makes it harder,
[00:39:54] >> not easier. That's actually harder
[00:39:56] >> cuz first thing I do when I go in, dunk
[00:39:58] the face in. And I don't know what it
[00:40:00] the nerves in the face, your body just
[00:40:04] reaction. It almost feels like the water
[00:40:06] warmed up two or three degrees.
[00:40:08] >> Oh yeah. Interesting.
[00:40:09] >> And so he's getting in without putting
[00:40:11] his Oh, you still don't put your face.
[00:40:12] Really?
[00:40:14] >> That's interesting. Now, okay. So, I
[00:40:16] didn't even think this conversation was
[00:40:17] going to go down this path. I just
[00:40:19] recently went in for an eye exam two
[00:40:20] weeks ago and I had to detach retina.
[00:40:23] >> And so, yes, for through a normal exam,
[00:40:26] they had just gotten a new camera. I
[00:40:28] kind of had to argue with them. They're
[00:40:30] like, "You want to do a picture? Do you
[00:40:32] know?" And I go, "Or do you want to
[00:40:33] dilate? What do you want to do?" And I'm
[00:40:34] like, "I don't know. New new camera. I
[00:40:36] got it. When's the last time I had a
[00:40:38] picture? Like two years ago. I go, let's
[00:40:39] do a new picture. Are you sure it's $49?
[00:40:41] [laughter] Like, yes, I want to do it.
[00:40:43] It's like, do I have to twist your arm
[00:40:45] to make me spend some money?
[00:40:47] >> So, he did this new picture machine and
[00:40:50] >> I I'm, you know, some people might
[00:40:53] think, I'm just doing a pitch for this
[00:40:55] doctor. And a lot of people thought it
[00:40:56] was kind of I talked to some people and
[00:40:57] they thought it was a little, how do I
[00:40:59] want to say? Well, yeah, sure, they'll
[00:41:00] do this picture so they can charge
[00:41:02] another 50 bucks. But,
[00:41:03] >> no,
[00:41:04] >> I'm going to tell you something. When I
[00:41:06] went into the actual retinal specialist
[00:41:08] down here in Florida, he must have said
[00:41:10] a dozen times. Oh wow, that was a good
[00:41:12] catch. Oh wow, that was a good catch. He
[00:41:14] said it I don't know how many times. I
[00:41:16] actually got a bottle of bourbon here
[00:41:17] for my optometrist [laughter] because
[00:41:20] like for real like this guy kept saying
[00:41:22] and I think I think what he's not what
[00:41:24] I'm reading between the lines and I
[00:41:26] could be wrong but what I'm reading
[00:41:27] between the lines is you know this
[00:41:29] wasn't something that most annual
[00:41:33] routine exams would have caught because
[00:41:35] they caught it super early
[00:41:37] >> and it wasn't fully torn and I was able
[00:41:39] to get in literally the next day
[00:41:42] >> and um so I'm just curious so
[00:41:45] I see a bunch of black spots now where
[00:41:48] he I guess stitched it with lasers.
[00:41:50] >> Oh yeah, that hurts like a son of a gun
[00:41:53] when they do that laser surgery like
[00:41:54] that.
[00:41:55] >> Really? That hurt? That hurt? It didn't
[00:41:58] I found it discomfort, but it wasn't it
[00:42:00] wasn't painful like
[00:42:01] >> Well, I had a a horseshoe tear the first
[00:42:04] one. So,
[00:42:05] >> I was releasing my book and this was
[00:42:08] like October.
[00:42:09] >> So, that's a major tear. Oh,
[00:42:12] >> you're saying a horseshoe is like it's a
[00:42:13] whole See, mine was like 3 millimeters.
[00:42:16] Mine was 3 millimeters. That was it.
[00:42:18] >> Oh, yeah. Mine was
[00:42:19] >> very small.
[00:42:21] >> I I was on one of these Zoom calls with
[00:42:24] Hillary Pora and she's interviewing me
[00:42:27] on the day of my book launch and all of
[00:42:30] a sudden I see black ink black squiggles
[00:42:33] going across my eye. I'm like, "Oh, this
[00:42:35] is weird."
[00:42:37] And then that evening it's like uh a
[00:42:40] steamy shower door is going over my eye
[00:42:44] like
[00:42:45] white kind of steamy like this is weird.
[00:42:49] So I call my optometrist the next
[00:42:51] morning cuz I just had a regular routine
[00:42:54] thing for my glasses. I've been wearing
[00:42:56] glasses forever. And um I said something
[00:42:59] is not right. Like I I'm banging the
[00:43:01] phones until they answered the first
[00:43:03] thing in the morning. They and I said
[00:43:05] this is what's going on. and they said,
[00:43:06] "You need to come in right away." So, I
[00:43:08] go in right away. They look and they're
[00:43:10] like, "Oh, that's a horseshoe tear. Um,
[00:43:12] you're you're having surgery today with
[00:43:15] a retina specialist." So, they send me
[00:43:17] to a retina uh uh specialist. And so,
[00:43:24] he's like, "All right, you know, and you
[00:43:25] wait because they're shoehorning you
[00:43:27] in." So, we get in. He goes, "Well, this
[00:43:30] is what we're going to do." And they
[00:43:32] they, you know, you're fully dilated.
[00:43:34] They numb you up as much as they can. It
[00:43:37] felt like for 10 minutes they were
[00:43:39] drilling on every one of my teeth with
[00:43:42] no Novacaane.
[00:43:43] >> Oh wow.
[00:43:45] >> I mean I was white knuckling it and I
[00:43:49] can I have a fairly high pain threshold
[00:43:52] but like
[00:43:53] >> at 33 degrees
[00:43:54] >> I am sweating and shaking and it's like
[00:43:58] I'm so sorry. I'm like,
[00:44:02] I mean, it's like somebody kicked you
[00:44:04] with steel toaded boots where you don't
[00:44:07] want to be kicked only it's registering
[00:44:10] at the back of your eyeball
[00:44:12] >> eyeball, right?
[00:44:13] >> It's like, holy moly.
[00:44:15] >> So, we think, oh, well, that's it.
[00:44:18] And, you know, you can't see like you're
[00:44:20] looking at lights and they're purple or
[00:44:22] whatever from the laser, but okay. So 10
[00:44:26] minutes of lasering.
[00:44:28] >> 10 minutes of
[00:44:29] >> That's substant. See, I was like maybe
[00:44:32] two minutes maybe.
[00:44:34] >> Oh wow. Yeah.
[00:44:34] >> Yeah. They were in and out. They I think
[00:44:36] they caught it super early.
[00:44:38] >> Yeah. You're you're so blessed. I mean
[00:44:41] so blessed. Um but then
[00:44:43] >> bourbons definitely deserve it.
[00:44:44] >> Yeah. Yeah. Get [laughter] him a good
[00:44:46] one.
[00:44:48] But then a few months later, I'm
[00:44:50] thinking I'm good and I have a blind
[00:44:53] spot. Like I can't see my finger here,
[00:44:56] but I can see it here. I can't see it
[00:44:57] here. Like, so I and I'm thinking, ah, I
[00:45:01] got to go back in anyway. But that had
[00:45:03] been happening for weeks, and I should
[00:45:06] have gone in immediately.
[00:45:08] And uh retina specialist, Dr. Tucker,
[00:45:11] goes, "Oh man, you got a partial
[00:45:14] detachment. Like, it's time for big boy
[00:45:17] surgery." like what? And he goes like,
[00:45:19] "Yeah, it's called a vitrectomy where
[00:45:21] they it's full anes, you know, you're
[00:45:24] under general anesthesia.
[00:45:26] The it's a 1-hour procedure. They remove
[00:45:29] all like they put a shunt in one side of
[00:45:31] the your your eyeball and a shunt in the
[00:45:33] other and they remove all the vitrius
[00:45:35] fluid and then they put a gas bubble in
[00:45:39] and then guess what? You get to look
[00:45:41] down at the floor for 5 days for some
[00:45:46] people. I've had like uh Reebok's
[00:45:48] founder, his wife, I was talking to her,
[00:45:51] she had this happen and she was down for
[00:45:54] like 3 weeks like that. Oh my goodness.
[00:45:57] That's excruciating.
[00:45:58] >> So, you're laying in a bed face down.
[00:46:01] >> You're Yeah, you're look like I was
[00:46:03] laying on
[00:46:04] uh a flat coffee table that we have
[00:46:07] that's padded and putting my head on
[00:46:11] another chair and looking down. And then
[00:46:13] when you stand up, you're looking down.
[00:46:16] When you are trying to sleep, you have
[00:46:18] to be in a certain position where this
[00:46:20] gas bubble is. So that and then it
[00:46:23] dissipates after, I don't know, 10 days
[00:46:27] or something like that, 2 weeks,
[00:46:29] something like that. And that's a weird
[00:46:31] deal. So we think, oh, this is great.
[00:46:34] Okay, everything's good. Two weeks
[00:46:36] later, 3 weeks later, maybe,
[00:46:40] um, I'm getting ready. I have to go do a
[00:46:42] keynote speech.
[00:46:44] And that night
[00:46:47] and I I was cleared to start lifting
[00:46:50] some uh dumbbells again and whatever.
[00:46:53] And I picked up these 52lb dumbbells and
[00:46:56] I'm thinking, uh-oh. Like I didn't feel
[00:46:59] something, but like I just knew
[00:47:01] something wasn't quite right. A third of
[00:47:03] my vision was gone by the next morning.
[00:47:07] And I'm like, I got to drive to Myrtle
[00:47:09] Beach. you know, it's three and a half
[00:47:10] hour drive. So, I called the doc on
[00:47:13] call. That was Dr. Tucker's partner. I
[00:47:16] said, "Here's what's going on." And I
[00:47:18] said, he goes, "Well," I said, "Can I
[00:47:20] drive?" Cuz I'm the keynote speaker and
[00:47:22] they don't have a backup. You know, it's
[00:47:24] like for a big conference.
[00:47:26] And uh he's like, "Well, we'd rather
[00:47:28] not, but understand your commitment."
[00:47:31] So, yeah, as long as you feel
[00:47:32] comfortable. But he said, "You got to
[00:47:34] get your butt in here." This was on a
[00:47:36] Sunday when I called him. had to drive
[00:47:38] that afternoon. Then, um, Sunday night,
[00:47:43] complete light lights out. Like it it's
[00:47:46] starting to close and I'm looking
[00:47:48] through like a a a quarter inch split
[00:47:52] >> and then boom, gone.
[00:47:54] >> And uh, so I deliver my speech with one
[00:47:57] eye, drive home with one eye. That's
[00:48:00] weird. And then get into the dock and
[00:48:04] he's like, you're going in for surgery
[00:48:05] tomorrow. I'm like, "Okay, another one
[00:48:07] of those vitrectomies." No joke. And he
[00:48:12] said, "We're we're putting silicone in
[00:48:13] your eye." And the bad thing is like to
[00:48:16] stabilize that retina cuz it was a full
[00:48:19] detachment. It like
[00:48:22] the whole membrane just collapsed.
[00:48:25] It's like the screen uh you know of a
[00:48:28] projection projection screen just like
[00:48:31] collapses. So, um, he said, "We have to
[00:48:35] do another vitratomy after that's done
[00:48:37] to remove the oil, but like that's
[00:48:39] months. We got to keep that." So, you're
[00:48:41] looking through this oil, you know, like
[00:48:45] it's it's it's the weirdest thing.
[00:48:48] But what a blessing, man. I mean, my dad
[00:48:51] lost an eye to that. Um, never got his
[00:48:53] sight back and, you know, so it's it's a
[00:48:56] blessing that you got that thing covered
[00:48:59] and taken care of when you did.
[00:49:01] Um, and it's another one of those deals
[00:49:04] where it's like you two, you know, I've
[00:49:06] had more people go, "Oh, dude, I've had
[00:49:09] the same thing." Like, I mean, it's just
[00:49:11] >> I'm like telling everybody, "Go spend
[00:49:12] the money off for the photograph. Make
[00:49:15] sure you get dilated. Make sure they
[00:49:16] check you out cuz it's uh,
[00:49:19] >> you know, you only have two eyeballs and
[00:49:21] you really don't want to lose one cuz
[00:49:22] you still that's still like
[00:49:24] >> Oh, it's weird. Yeah.
[00:49:25] >> So, how was it driving back? I mean,
[00:49:27] with one eye. I mean, I'm sure that
[00:49:28] >> was strange because like I couldn't see
[00:49:31] anybody passing me because it was my
[00:49:33] left eye. I couldn't see anybody on my
[00:49:35] peripheral.
[00:49:36] >> Um, but my father
[00:49:40] lived for
[00:49:42] I don't know another 20 years, almost 30
[00:49:45] years, 25 years with one eye and he had
[00:49:49] one leg and he was still driving a like
[00:49:51] he had lost a leg to polio when he was
[00:49:53] 17. So, um, he was driving a 33 ft motor
[00:49:57] home, pulling a car, even through the
[00:49:59] Tetons with one eye and one leg, like,
[00:50:01] [laughter] okay,
[00:50:04] you could do it. Uh, but I have a whole
[00:50:06] new appreciation. And, you know, he he
[00:50:08] had passed before this happened to me,
[00:50:11] but I thought, man, at least I could
[00:50:14] talk with my dad about that, you know.
[00:50:16] But, yeah, so it's a blessing to be able
[00:50:19] to have both eyes.
[00:50:21] >> Yeah,
[00:50:21] >> it really is.
[00:50:22] >> It's my understanding. What do you call
[00:50:23] that? What do you call the gel in there?
[00:50:26] Natural gel. Vitri.
[00:50:27] >> Oh, the vitrius fluid that is
[00:50:29] >> vitrius fluid. So what he what they
[00:50:31] explained to me is that it it like it's
[00:50:33] at at you know midlife.
[00:50:36] >> Yeah.
[00:50:36] >> Is pulling away and that correct?
[00:50:39] >> It kind of stuck to that one part and it
[00:50:42] will tear
[00:50:43] >> when it's trying to pull away.
[00:50:45] >> And then I guess through their exam cuz
[00:50:47] they checked my left eye which was the
[00:50:49] un unaffected eye. They said, "Oh, that
[00:50:52] one's already been that vit vitrius
[00:50:54] fluid is already detached." So he goes,
[00:50:57] "You're not you have no risk on your
[00:50:58] left eye of this happening."
[00:51:00] >> Oh, that's a blessing.
[00:51:01] >> Was So, so is that what happened with
[00:51:03] you as well? Was it that that stuck and
[00:51:06] then pulled and teared it?
[00:51:08] >> Yeah, cuz I I was like, you know, what
[00:51:10] what caused this, you know, cuz I wasn't
[00:51:12] working out, you know, like what's the
[00:51:15] deal? And they said,
[00:51:16] >> you're over 50.
[00:51:18] you um are nearsighted. So if you're
[00:51:22] >> nearsighted as well. Okay.
[00:51:24] >> It's just how the eyeball elongates and
[00:51:28] it puts additional pressure on the
[00:51:30] retina. And what I didn't know is the
[00:51:31] retina is like a super thin single ply
[00:51:37] toilet paper that's wet. That's like
[00:51:40] what it's like. It's very fragile.
[00:51:43] >> Super fragile. Yeah. And I mean I if you
[00:51:47] don't believe in God and you look at the
[00:51:50] in int intricacies of just the human
[00:51:53] eyeball
[00:51:55] like whoa. I mean it's just mindbogling
[00:52:00] you know how intricate and wonderfully
[00:52:04] we were created. But we are all very
[00:52:07] fragile far more fragile than we think
[00:52:10] we are. [laughter]
[00:52:12] And like we are fearfully and
[00:52:14] wonderfully made. I really believe that.
[00:52:15] And so um you know I don't I don't wish
[00:52:19] these things on others. And I've got you
[00:52:22] know when I went back to my ID do a year
[00:52:24] ago
[00:52:26] >> cuz I had
[00:52:27] >> this is very recent right?
[00:52:28] >> Yeah. I mean like 18 months ago or
[00:52:32] >> october of 23 when the first tear
[00:52:36] happened but then I hadn't seen my eye
[00:52:39] dock until last May of 25 because of all
[00:52:43] these surgeries it didn't make sense. So
[00:52:46] I said man I really wish I could read
[00:52:48] with this left eye like you know because
[00:52:52] it like there was some cloudiness. is
[00:52:55] almost like looking through saran wrap
[00:52:58] that has little bubbles, you know, it's
[00:53:00] very weird. And she goes, "Gary, I've
[00:53:03] got a an American Airlines pilot that
[00:53:06] had about a third of what happened to
[00:53:08] you and he can read the big E. That's
[00:53:11] it. That's it. Grounded."
[00:53:15] So she said, "It's really a miracle. You
[00:53:17] can see what you can see." Like, "Wow."
[00:53:19] Okay. I did not know. You know, I was
[00:53:22] >> Well, that was like me after my surgery.
[00:53:24] I saw these little black I was in a a
[00:53:26] super bright parking stairway. So sun
[00:53:29] was in there and it's all white and I
[00:53:31] see all these spots what I'm guessing is
[00:53:33] all the cuz so I call the doc. I'm like
[00:53:35] I go I don't want to be a pain.
[00:53:37] >> I'm not really concerned but I think I
[00:53:40] should tell you. I'm seeing all these
[00:53:41] little dots and I go do I need to come
[00:53:43] in? I go it's okay if I don't. I go just
[00:53:46] trust me I'm not complaining. I'm happy
[00:53:47] I can see. [laughter]
[00:53:48] >> Yes. Yeah. But I just I go I just don't
[00:53:51] want to like not say anything because I
[00:53:53] don't want anything to go wrong here,
[00:53:55] you know, and mess up what he did and by
[00:53:57] not getting back in quick enough, right?
[00:53:59] >> And um they're like, "No, that's
[00:54:00] perfectly normal." And they said it
[00:54:02] should go away. It hasn't yet. I don't
[00:54:04] know. Do did you I guess
[00:54:06] >> Oh, so they'll heal up. Those are just
[00:54:09] That's just scarring.
[00:54:10] >> Yeah, they they will. Uh, I mean it's
[00:54:13] it's
[00:54:16] it's almost like PTSD a little bit
[00:54:18] because then you're very hyper sensitive
[00:54:20] to like uhoh, you know, like every
[00:54:23] morning I'm like, can I see, you know,
[00:54:25] like [laughter]
[00:54:26] um but yeah, so it's it's different. And
[00:54:30] then I just had another laser surgery.
[00:54:33] It's called a yag. So this one is like
[00:54:35] the the least. But uh he goes, "Well, so
[00:54:39] I have you have to have a very
[00:54:41] specialized
[00:54:42] cataract surgeon that is dealing with
[00:54:46] retina patients." So he's very
[00:54:47] specialized cuz a cataract develops from
[00:54:51] the steroids and whatever they give you
[00:54:54] from the first surgery, like the first
[00:54:56] big boy surgery. So sure enough, you
[00:54:58] know, I have to have that and a cataract
[00:55:01] removed. They put in a new lens. So then
[00:55:05] they have to clear off this film that
[00:55:07] develops with a laser. So I go back for
[00:55:12] my oneyear check and and the doc's like
[00:55:15] Dr. K, he's like well you're in the 1%.
[00:55:20] And I go what's that mean? and he goes,
[00:55:21] "Yeah, you've got these cells, these
[00:55:25] errant cells that your body is trying to
[00:55:27] do to kind of help heal that retina and
[00:55:30] they're attaching to the backside of the
[00:55:33] artificial lens, which is why you can't
[00:55:35] see clearly through that."
[00:55:38] Oh, good. You know, and there's always a
[00:55:41] risk with everything, every procedure
[00:55:42] they do, but it was pretty cool. like
[00:55:45] yeah they go in he goes with with a lowd
[00:55:48] dose uh laser and it's like popping
[00:55:52] these cells like it like it's just
[00:55:57] mindblowing.
[00:55:58] But what was interesting to me too is
[00:56:00] Dr. K, he he uh fled Iran when it was
[00:56:05] still Persia.
[00:56:06] He said um he goes, "I'm good, but I'm
[00:56:10] not God." And he goes, "This new lens,
[00:56:13] they're good." And I paid for the extra
[00:56:16] good one, but he goes, "It will never
[00:56:19] replace what you were naturally given."
[00:56:22] Like again, you know, I'm just like,
[00:56:24] "Wow." Okay.
[00:56:25] >> Yeah. With all the tech that they've got
[00:56:27] now, right? All the tech,
[00:56:29] >> they can't they can't replicate it.
[00:56:31] >> No.
[00:56:32] >> No. So
[00:56:34] >> anyway, so the the the word there is
[00:56:36] guys, get your eyes checked and if you
[00:56:39] get a chance to maybe if they have, you
[00:56:41] know, the photographic imaging
[00:56:42] equipment, I suggest go ahead and spend
[00:56:45] a few bucks
[00:56:45] >> and do it
[00:56:46] >> and do it. At least get yourself a
[00:56:48] baseline, you know, so you you know
[00:56:50] what's what. I' i've always done the uh
[00:56:53] done the pictures. I think I've done
[00:56:54] them like every, you know, they keep
[00:56:56] upgrading the equipment, but the first
[00:56:58] they've, this office has always had it
[00:57:00] and I've I've had probably two or three
[00:57:02] pictures taken prior to this and uh
[00:57:04] everything was good. But wow, I didn't
[00:57:06] realize we were going to segue into a
[00:57:08] PSA for getting eye exams. Well, and
[00:57:11] here's the other thing that I would say,
[00:57:14] be grateful whatever you got. And um one
[00:57:18] of the things that I do talk in about in
[00:57:20] in Silence the Impostor, it's really not
[00:57:23] about the book. It's really about things
[00:57:26] that I learned in really deep and dark
[00:57:30] horrific places quite frankly. Um, but
[00:57:33] one of the most powerful things
[00:57:36] that I learned in the depth of my
[00:57:40] deepest despair where all hell was
[00:57:43] breaking loose and um we'd lost
[00:57:45] everything. Our private equity firm
[00:57:47] blows up. $30 million worth of us got
[00:57:49] wiped out and um I got two kids in
[00:57:53] college, lose everything except for my
[00:57:56] house
[00:57:57] and um lawsuits are flying. like it it's
[00:58:01] just unimaginable
[00:58:03] and yet it's nothing compared to what
[00:58:05] other people go through you know you
[00:58:08] know I think about Todd Francis who met
[00:58:10] on LinkedIn that's stage four cancer for
[00:58:13] four or for two years and like no family
[00:58:16] and yet he his writings are so profound
[00:58:20] um we all carry our own difficulties but
[00:58:24] what I learned was intentional gratitude
[00:58:28] and it's not toxic posit positivity.
[00:58:31] It is about finding something to be
[00:58:35] grateful for in the midst of
[00:58:40] deep and difficult pain.
[00:58:42] You must acknowledge the pain. You must
[00:58:45] acknowledge the difficulty. But what
[00:58:47] happens is I I would fixate on that and
[00:58:50] just ruminate and it just takes you
[00:58:52] down. But if you can find some gratitude
[00:58:56] in the middle of it and be grateful. I
[00:59:00] mean, you know, so when I couldn't see
[00:59:02] out of one eye, I'm like, "Okay, well, I
[00:59:05] can be grateful that I can see out of
[00:59:07] one eye, you know. I can
[00:59:09] >> You can still see.
[00:59:10] >> I can still see." And and like we live
[00:59:15] in a pretty amazing world. Yeah. That's
[00:59:17] a fallen place. But there's some like
[00:59:20] amazing stuff, you know. Look at the the
[00:59:24] the imagery from the web telescope.
[00:59:28] Whoa.
[00:59:29] >> Oh, wow. Yeah.
[00:59:30] >> Whoa. You know, blow your mind. Um
[00:59:33] things that we can't even our human
[00:59:35] minds can't even imagine.
[00:59:38] But I think when we find
[00:59:42] things that we're grateful for, it gets
[00:59:44] our mind off of our own inadequacies and
[00:59:48] the difficulties. Again, you have to
[00:59:50] acknowledge the difficulties. Just don't
[00:59:52] dwell there. And um
[00:59:54] >> right,
[00:59:55] >> I'm with you on that. I learned I
[00:59:57] learned a really valuable lesson. I was
[00:59:59] uh on the Camino this past fall and I
[01:00:03] had rented a bike and the bike honestly
[01:00:05] was crap. um and suffered through that
[01:00:09] couple of times. Chain breaks and chain
[01:00:12] finally broke in three places where I
[01:00:14] couldn't I mean I had lost a piece and
[01:00:16] it was too short. I couldn't even
[01:00:18] >> I couldn't fix it. They they did give me
[01:00:19] a tool but you know if I didn't have a
[01:00:21] spare chain I was screwed.
[01:00:22] >> So we end up having to walk a couple of
[01:00:24] miles to get a cab
[01:00:26] and um the cab gets the bike. I take the
[01:00:29] bike I throw it to the ground. I'm
[01:00:31] pissed off. [laughter]
[01:00:33] >> Yeah.
[01:00:33] >> Yeah. I didn't let the cabbie take the
[01:00:35] bike off the rack. I took it off and I
[01:00:36] just threw it on the ground. I was just
[01:00:37] so angry. And the um the uh the owner of
[01:00:42] the hotel walks out. He's like, it's I'm
[01:00:45] in Spain, Galatia, Spain, and my wife
[01:00:47] speaks Spanish. And
[01:00:48] >> he's like, "What's going on?"
[01:00:50] >> Oh, his bike broke and he's mad. He
[01:00:52] looks at my wife and he looks at me.
[01:00:54] He's like, "What's your problem?"
[01:00:57] >> You got you got this beautiful woman
[01:00:59] standing right here. [laughter]
[01:01:01] And he had just lost his wife.
[01:01:03] >> Wow. And I mean that was pretty
[01:01:06] impactful.
[01:01:08] >> You know, the bicycle means nothing.
[01:01:10] He's like, "You have a wife.
[01:01:12] >> I don't have a wife."
[01:01:14] >> The poor guy was super distressed. He
[01:01:15] probably still grieving, right?
[01:01:17] >> And
[01:01:18] >> Yeah.
[01:01:19] >> And it just uh [snorts] Yeah. kind of
[01:01:22] slapped you upside your face. Kind of
[01:01:24] put things in
[01:01:25] >> It's humbling, isn't it?
[01:01:26] >> Yeah. It was very humbling cuz, you
[01:01:28] know, I'm all pissed off and she's
[01:01:30] trying to calm me down and um [laughter]
[01:01:34] Yeah, that's a really that's a that's a
[01:01:36] that's a gut punch, right?
[01:01:38] >> Yeah.
[01:01:39] >> I guess I would hope for most people. It
[01:01:41] was for me anyway, [laughter]
[01:01:43] you know.
[01:01:44] >> Yeah.
[01:01:44] >> And um and it just kind of I can't say
[01:01:48] that I was over it the next day, but it
[01:01:49] it definitely helped tener my anger
[01:01:53] quite a bit, you know.
[01:01:55] >> Yeah. Perspective is an important thing.
[01:01:58] We can lose perspective pretty easily.
[01:02:01] Um
[01:02:03] and you know, you've got a creative
[01:02:06] background. I was trained as a creative
[01:02:08] and and um you know, one of my
[01:02:10] superpowers was finding the flaws and
[01:02:13] the imperfections,
[01:02:15] but it also became my kryptonite because
[01:02:19] that's all I could see. And that's not a
[01:02:22] good that's not seeing clearly. you
[01:02:24] know, if you all you see,
[01:02:27] you know, yeah, it's great when you can
[01:02:29] see the imperfections and and the flaws
[01:02:32] because then you can go in and fix them,
[01:02:34] which is why I'm good at what I do. But
[01:02:36] if that's all you see, you got a
[01:02:39] problem, P, and I did have a problem. It
[01:02:42] was myopia. It was just, hey, you know,
[01:02:47] have some balance here and um use the
[01:02:51] superpower, but don't let it define you
[01:02:54] and also don't let it cloud.
[01:02:57] >> That's really interesting. So, what what
[01:02:59] kind of flaws do you see? Is it just is
[01:03:02] it visual? Is it um
[01:03:05] >> you know like um
[01:03:09] so I'm in I'm in this beautiful place
[01:03:12] that we reid it's a 110 year old mill uh
[01:03:17] and it was just a shell when we came in
[01:03:19] so I worked with some incredible
[01:03:21] architects and I started in architecture
[01:03:23] so I had that eye anyway and I started
[01:03:26] as a designer but I can look up there
[01:03:30] and I can see there's a little piece of
[01:03:35] um and and you know these are 17t
[01:03:38] ceilings but in this office or in this
[01:03:41] studio it's like they're probably 9 or
[01:03:44] 10t but I can see a little piece of uh
[01:03:46] the wallpaper that's like not perfect.
[01:03:51] Well, am I going to just focus on that
[01:03:52] or I'm going to focus on like hey this
[01:03:54] is a cool place. You know that's part of
[01:03:57] the thing.
[01:03:58] >> How do you how do you deal with that?
[01:03:59] cuz I can completely relate to that. My
[01:04:02] eye, if I walked into that office, my
[01:04:04] eye would probably be drawn to that
[01:04:06] piece of wallpaper like almost.
[01:04:07] >> What I'll probably do is I'll I'll
[01:04:10] probably get a
[01:04:12] um a ladder at some point and I will
[01:04:15] trim that thing off and just leave it.
[01:04:18] Um and there are other like this is a
[01:04:20] quirky old place and there are little
[01:04:23] things that you know
[01:04:25] >> like like here's one right now for me.
[01:04:27] See this? All those wrinkles drives me
[01:04:29] crazy.
[01:04:29] >> Oh yeah, sure. It's called a steamer.
[01:04:31] Then get a steamer.
[01:04:32] >> Yeah, I have one. I just, [laughter] you
[01:04:34] know,
[01:04:36] um what's the saying? You feel the plan
[01:04:40] to fail.
[01:04:41] >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
[01:04:44] Uh but I can see the same thing in in
[01:04:47] companies like I can I can spot where
[01:04:49] the issue is very very quickly.
[01:04:52] >> Um
[01:04:52] >> yeah. So I wouldn't say that I'm good at
[01:04:54] that. That's That's why I don't But the
[01:04:56] visual thing Yeah. I just Man, right
[01:04:58] away I got it. Just like you.
[01:05:00] >> Yeah. You
[01:05:00] >> know.
[01:05:01] >> Yeah.
[01:05:01] >> Walking into a company and spotting a
[01:05:03] problem, I I'd say I I'm don't have that
[01:05:06] necessarily.
[01:05:07] >> But I have to be careful not to be a
[01:05:09] wrecking ball at the same time. Like,
[01:05:12] >> you know, like mine, right?
[01:05:14] >> Go at their pace
[01:05:16] >> just because I want to fix it. You know,
[01:05:19] like, you know, I like to attack the
[01:05:22] toughest things first.
[01:05:24] hit it hard. Um,
[01:05:28] but not everybody's ready to do that.
[01:05:30] So, you have to be, you know, and that's
[01:05:32] where age and some wisdom, you know, and
[01:05:35] for me it was just getting kicked in the
[01:05:37] teeth so many times. [laughter]
[01:05:40] Okay, I get it. You know, like willpower
[01:05:43] will take you so and so far and then
[01:05:44] finally you will come to the end of
[01:05:46] yourself. And uh and that's a blessing,
[01:05:49] you know, when when that happens. Uh if
[01:05:51] it doesn't kill you, it's a blessing.
[01:05:54] So anyway,
[01:05:58] >> so I'm just curious. I want to dive into
[01:06:00] this just a little bit because we talked
[01:06:01] about it earlier. So you you state in
[01:06:05] your book and you've said it here
[01:06:06] actually already. You're a college
[01:06:08] dropout. like what does that mean for
[01:06:09] you
[01:06:11] um
[01:06:12] >> as far as uh credibility versus
[01:06:14] credentials and and why do you think
[01:06:16] people overvalue the credentials when
[01:06:19] you know clarity and collaboration
[01:06:21] probably matter a little bit more and
[01:06:22] having having that vision being able to
[01:06:24] see those
[01:06:25] >> well I think
[01:06:26] >> blind spots
[01:06:28] >> for me so you know I go back I'm the
[01:06:31] oldest kid of two kids my dad just was
[01:06:36] shy of writing his dissertation in
[01:06:38] getting it published for his PhD. My mom
[01:06:41] was a nurse, RN, had her four-year
[01:06:45] degree, and here I am, the oldest child,
[01:06:48] and I'm going to Kansas State on a full
[01:06:50] ride academic scholarship called the
[01:06:53] Putnham Scholarship.
[01:06:56] And I drop out after my second year cuz
[01:06:59] I have a full-time job offer for a
[01:07:02] whopping 10,500 a year no benefits
[01:07:07] design job after I had interned for this
[01:07:10] guy. And my adviser says, "Gary, you got
[01:07:13] to take the job because I can't get
[01:07:15] grads placed." And it was the height of
[01:07:18] the greatest unemployment since the
[01:07:20] Great Depression in 1982.
[01:07:24] Well,
[01:07:27] that doesn't sit real well with highly
[01:07:30] educated parents. And you know, um,
[01:07:34] >> my parents were, my parents, not only
[01:07:36] were they highly educated, they were in
[01:07:37] education. So,
[01:07:39] >> yeah,
[01:07:40] >> no options. You're going to college,
[01:07:41] you're going to get a college degree
[01:07:42] because that's what you do.
[01:07:44] >> My dad was an educator as well. So um
[01:07:48] you know it was an embarrassment to them
[01:07:50] I think you know and um
[01:07:54] and what my my adviser had said she had
[01:07:58] worked for Hallmark and I was a graphic
[01:08:00] designer she's like you know your book
[01:08:02] is everything you know have get a
[01:08:05] fireproof safe keep your book in there
[01:08:08] and like that's it then you're working
[01:08:10] for a very talented designer
[01:08:13] build your book well okay So then my
[01:08:17] identity becomes my ability to design.
[01:08:20] Well, if you look at most creatives, I
[01:08:22] mean, all you got to do is look at
[01:08:24] Golden Globes or whatever um Grammys,
[01:08:28] you know, all the self- agilation uh
[01:08:31] award shows. Well, that's what we had in
[01:08:34] the advertising world too and design
[01:08:37] world like everybody's hiding behind
[01:08:40] their mask and they're self
[01:08:42] congratulating themselves and you know
[01:08:44] but they they feel like an imposttor
[01:08:47] because you're only as good as your last
[01:08:49] idea and your big fear is am I out of
[01:08:52] ideas that became my identity? Well,
[01:08:57] partner embezzlement. Then I move out
[01:08:59] here and another partner screws me. And
[01:09:03] I'm like, I must be a real loser. And
[01:09:06] I'm in not the mecca of advertising. I'm
[01:09:10] not in New York. And I didn't want to
[01:09:11] live in New York, even though my uh my
[01:09:14] mentor was a big shot in New York. I'm
[01:09:19] in a backwater called Charlotte, North
[01:09:21] Carolina. At least a backwater from the
[01:09:23] creative world. What do I do? I go work
[01:09:27] for a freaking bank. Oh, well, I'm
[01:09:30] thinking I am completely off the rails
[01:09:33] and I'm in a Fortune 100 bank
[01:09:36] and I'm thinking I've got to get back to
[01:09:38] what I'm good at, but I have to make it.
[01:09:41] You know, I didn't even know how to
[01:09:42] type. I had I was doing Mavis Beacon
[01:09:44] teaches typing, doing asteroids with
[01:09:47] letters at night, you know, because I'm
[01:09:49] getting a hundred emails a day and I
[01:09:51] can't handpack my way out of it. and you
[01:09:54] know so I'm but I can't like yeah HR
[01:09:59] like knows that I don't have a degree
[01:10:02] because and and the top guy wants me in
[01:10:07] so they kind of circumvent HR. Well the
[01:10:09] same thing happens when I go to Bank of
[01:10:11] America. It was Nations Bank at the
[01:10:13] time. I get handpicked and selected to
[01:10:15] come over there for a MacGyver role.
[01:10:18] That's where the MacGyver comes from
[01:10:19] because they're like, "Hey, we need you
[01:10:20] to figure out why this acquisition is
[01:10:22] off the rails. We think it's this, but
[01:10:25] like you're from the Midwest. You you're
[01:10:27] known for figuring stuff out and and
[01:10:30] it's a communication issue, we think.
[01:10:33] Not sure."
[01:10:35] So, I'm I'm among people. my peers went
[01:10:38] to Yale, you know, masters from
[01:10:41] Northwestern, you know, like, and here I
[01:10:44] am, two-year at Kansas State, and I'm
[01:10:48] dropped out and I'm a senior VP there.
[01:10:51] Like, I didn't know anybody that way.
[01:10:53] So, I had to be very quiet
[01:10:56] and that's not necessarily my uh MO
[01:10:59] anyway, but like so you're just
[01:11:02] suffering in embarrassment and
[01:11:04] quietness, you know, because like and
[01:11:06] then you know I was managing multi multi
[01:11:10] like tens and of millions of dollars in
[01:11:14] in ad spend and I'm getting recruiter
[01:11:18] calls from various places and I I'll
[01:11:21] never forget I get a call I think it was
[01:11:23] from Fizer and um they loved my
[01:11:26] background and whatever but they're then
[01:11:28] they're like hey we're we're not under
[01:11:31] like we're not sure about your education
[01:11:33] background you said 1982
[01:11:36] but I we don't see a degree and I said
[01:11:38] yeah I dropped out and they're like oh
[01:11:40] well interview over really interview
[01:11:44] over well thank god I I would hate to
[01:11:46] work for a pharmaceutical company like I
[01:11:49] would hate it um but you You know, I was
[01:11:54] thinking, you know, again, that whole
[01:11:58] comparing myself with my peers, well, I
[01:12:01] didn't stack up.
[01:12:03] It's an unfair fight, you know, and a
[01:12:05] lot of what I found is we will compare
[01:12:08] ourselves with other people and it like
[01:12:11] the best visual I've experienced is like
[01:12:14] think of a 1-in circle and it says what
[01:12:17] I know and then it's surrounded by a
[01:12:19] five foot circle and in that five foot c
[01:12:22] foot circle it says what I think
[01:12:24] everyone else knows.
[01:12:26] >> Right.
[01:12:27] >> Unfair fight. And what we're doing is
[01:12:29] >> what is that? That's the uh what do you
[01:12:31] call that? Dunning Krueger
[01:12:33] >> the reverse the reverse of Dunning
[01:12:35] Krueger if you actually look and read
[01:12:36] about it the reverse of Dunning Krueger
[01:12:38] they cover both sides of that right
[01:12:40] >> is that a lot of highly intelligent
[01:12:43] people have this perception that
[01:12:45] everybody around them just as you said I
[01:12:47] I know this and everybody around me
[01:12:49] knows this when
[01:12:50] >> and it's not true
[01:12:50] >> it's actually not the reality of it
[01:12:53] >> it's not true um we compare our
[01:12:55] behindthescenes reels that haunt us oh
[01:12:58] gosh I hope that never gets published or
[01:13:00] I hope that never makes it to the
[01:13:01] internet or whatever. We'll hide that
[01:13:04] stuff. But then we're comparing that
[01:13:07] with the show reels and the carefully
[01:13:10] curated Instagram, you know, [laughter]
[01:13:14] posts of other people. Uh it's not a
[01:13:17] fair fight, you know, and and it's
[01:13:20] ridiculous. You you you fail to
[01:13:21] celebrate your uniqueness. You failed to
[01:13:24] celebrate how you were given a unique
[01:13:28] set of DNA, a unique thumbrint that
[01:13:31] nobody else has ever had and no one else
[01:13:34] ever will
[01:13:36] celebrate that.
[01:13:38] >> And it just took me way too long to
[01:13:40] figure that out, but I'm glad I finally
[01:13:42] did. You know, again, getting beaten
[01:13:45] beaten up.
[01:13:45] >> So, you were you were two years in. I
[01:13:47] was probably
[01:13:49] I guess I was maybe two or three years
[01:13:52] in and then I fell in love, wanted to
[01:13:55] get married,
[01:13:57] need to get a job and
[01:13:59] >> so I never actually formally dropped
[01:14:01] out. I kept taking classes and then uh
[01:14:05] >> eventually I was in a good paying job
[01:14:08] for
[01:14:09] >> at the at the time it was good paying at
[01:14:11] least I thought it was.
[01:14:12] >> Yeah. And um I got some training and I
[01:14:15] was working with a guy that didn't have
[01:14:19] a degree.
[01:14:21] And what was really I guess impactful
[01:14:24] for me was he had gotten a call from
[01:14:27] some big farm, wanted to hire him, got
[01:14:29] through the interview, gave him the
[01:14:31] offer, and then he get a call from the
[01:14:34] hiring manager. He's like, "Oh, by the
[01:14:35] way, um where'd you go to school? We
[01:14:37] just got this one little detail we need
[01:14:39] to take care of."
[01:14:40] >> Uhhuh.
[01:14:41] >> He's like,
[01:14:42] [laughter] Uh, I didn't.
[01:14:46] >> And he's like, he goes, "No, you're
[01:14:49] kidding me, right?" He goes, "No, I'm
[01:14:51] not kidding you." And this guy, like,
[01:14:52] they wanted to hire him bad
[01:14:55] >> and it was a company policy. He's like,
[01:14:57] he goes, "Dude, I can't I can't push
[01:15:00] this through."
[01:15:02] >> And that was very impactful for me in
[01:15:04] the perspective.
[01:15:05] >> Yeah.
[01:15:06] >> In the sense of like, oh my god, here's
[01:15:08] somebody that wants to hire you. They
[01:15:11] want to hire you.
[01:15:13] >> Yep.
[01:15:14] >> And they can't get it through because
[01:15:16] some stupid company policy. Everybody
[01:15:18] has to have a degree. And that's when I
[01:15:20] buckled down and I got like my I only
[01:15:22] had like three or four classes left.
[01:15:25] >> And so I buckled down and got them done.
[01:15:27] So I finally got it. And
[01:15:29] >> to me it's still kind of just so you
[01:15:31] know
[01:15:32] >> from a guy that's got a piece of paper.
[01:15:34] >> I still look at that and go is that
[01:15:36] real? [laughter]
[01:15:38] >> Did I really get that? Well, what what's
[01:15:41] funny is now because I was on a stage
[01:15:46] with a guy that was making millions of
[01:15:48] dollars off of freaking Tik Tok and it
[01:15:50] was like embarrassing, but he thought
[01:15:52] like his poop didn't stink. He thought
[01:15:54] he had an entourage and I'm thinking
[01:15:57] you're 20 something early 20s
[01:16:01] and you're embarrassing yourself on the
[01:16:04] public like stupid pranks embarrassingly
[01:16:08] bad but making millions of dollars.
[01:16:12] You did not have that opportunity back
[01:16:15] in the 80s and 90s. like it was about
[01:16:19] your pedigree
[01:16:21] and it was about where you went to
[01:16:23] school and you at the bare minimum
[01:16:26] for you to get any like all of my jobs
[01:16:30] from
[01:16:32] [clears throat and snorts] after that
[01:16:33] first job as a designer were college
[01:16:35] were bachelor's required and masters
[01:16:40] preferred
[01:16:41] >> right
[01:16:42] >> every job and so I was always playing
[01:16:45] cat-and- mouse with um HR, you know,
[01:16:48] somebody was dragging me
[01:16:50] >> you out. [laughter]
[01:16:52] >> Well, yeah. And it's like, well, they
[01:16:53] were dragging me into a situation like,
[01:16:56] okay, and and they basically made HR
[01:16:59] rubber rubber stamp it. I I knew it and
[01:17:02] I felt it at at Bank of America. Um, it
[01:17:05] was a MacGyver role and I actually did a
[01:17:08] good job at it. Uh, best boss I've ever
[01:17:10] had. Um, and she would often say, "Gary,
[01:17:14] we believe in you more than you do." Oh,
[01:17:16] dang. But but I still couldn't believe
[01:17:18] it because I was still comparing myself
[01:17:21] with the Yale and the Northwestern MBAs,
[01:17:24] you know, and um and it's just such a
[01:17:28] trap because
[01:17:30] what what I didn't even know this term
[01:17:34] imposttor syndrome until probably four
[01:17:36] or five years ago.
[01:17:38] But I suffered from it from the time I
[01:17:40] was 10 years old. And ironically in 1972
[01:17:43] that's when that term got coined by
[01:17:45] these two female psychiatrists or
[01:17:47] psychologists that saw these common
[01:17:50] traits happening among high achieving
[01:17:54] female clients of theirs which were they
[01:17:56] were plagued by thoughts of in
[01:17:58] insecurity. I'm not good enough. If you
[01:18:01] know if people just knew this or that
[01:18:02] about me they'd reject me etc. Oh I just
[01:18:05] got lucky. I just, you know, like for
[01:18:08] their success, you know, it'll it'll
[01:18:11] find me out, you know, JLo. Well, I
[01:18:13] mean, it's funny some of these stars
[01:18:16] that have it and and I really do see it
[01:18:18] in in the in the arts and I've got
[01:18:20] professional musicians in our family in
[01:18:23] Nashville and they they are in those
[01:18:25] circles and it runs rampant uh rampant
[01:18:30] um because you know it's like you think
[01:18:34] well I'm as good as that last album, I'm
[01:18:38] as good as that last piece that I did or
[01:18:40] whatever and it's so perform
[01:18:43] performanceoriented, especially if
[01:18:44] you're in a performing arts kind of
[01:18:46] thing. But now we've got
[01:18:50] possibilities and I think you have
[01:18:52] people that realize, well, wait a
[01:18:54] minute, you know, it wasn't the degree
[01:18:58] and there's more
[01:19:01] acceptance of talent and character
[01:19:05] than just checking the box. Now you
[01:19:08] still governmental jobs or whatever. A
[01:19:11] lot of them are still going to go m you
[01:19:14] got to hit this thing, you know, okay,
[01:19:18] but maybe that's not it. And and
[01:19:19] entrepreneurism
[01:19:21] makes a a way
[01:19:25] where it's like screw those credentials.
[01:19:27] I've got an idea and I'm going to bet on
[01:19:30] myself. Okay. You know, there's just
[01:19:33] more
[01:19:35] acceptance of that. Um, and you're
[01:19:39] seeing a lot of successful people, you
[01:19:42] know, what's success, right? But people
[01:19:45] that have done well,
[01:19:49] built companies, etc. uh that didn't
[01:19:51] have and I think about Philip, you know,
[01:19:53] like literally living in a tent
[01:19:56] >> and picking up trash and growing
[01:20:00] a an 8 figureure
[01:20:04] business, you know, with hundreds of
[01:20:06] employees is pretty incredible. So I
[01:20:08] mean how so what would be your message
[01:20:10] though to you know one of the things I
[01:20:12] find in my little circle of friends is I
[01:20:14] uh my background is in IT and um
[01:20:18] >> right now in 2026 I don't know that
[01:20:21] degrees are really a a
[01:20:24] uh
[01:20:27] obstacle.
[01:20:29] >> Yeah. Yet, if you're over 50 and got
[01:20:32] gray hair, um, even though you've got
[01:20:35] that degree,
[01:20:38] >> oh, that's real.
[01:20:39] >> I have I have some buddies that are
[01:20:41] sending out resumes left and right. They
[01:20:43] can't get hired. They can't they can't
[01:20:45] even make half of what they were making
[01:20:46] back in the 90s.
[01:20:48] >> No.
[01:20:49] >> And so,
[01:20:51] >> yeah,
[01:20:52] >> I think they're struggling a little bit
[01:20:53] with maybe some imposttor syndrome when
[01:20:55] it comes like to AI and what they can
[01:20:57] do. Obviously, it's just it's just odd
[01:21:00] because you know it I don't know what
[01:21:03] your knowledge of programming is. You
[01:21:04] probably have a little bit and
[01:21:07] programming is just logic and um if you
[01:21:10] understand queries and SQL and logic
[01:21:14] taking that and applying
[01:21:17] AI to it is really not not a big jump
[01:21:21] yet these guys that can't get hired.
[01:21:26] Well, what I found is um I've had to be
[01:21:29] scrappy and I've had to reinvent myself.
[01:21:32] I mean, what what the heck am I doing as
[01:21:34] a partner in a CPA firm? [laughter]
[01:21:37] >> I mean, it's hilarious,
[01:21:39] >> right?
[01:21:39] >> You know, starting a podcast on our own,
[01:21:42] you know, even apart from the the firm,
[01:21:45] but like
[01:21:47] um but they and I was 100% commissioned.
[01:21:50] Like I I brought my coaching practice
[01:21:52] into this place.
[01:21:55] um went on 100% commission cuz every
[01:21:58] other you know business development
[01:22:00] person had failed in this uh company
[01:22:03] but I was willing to bet on myself cuz I
[01:22:06] saw differentiation with this group like
[01:22:08] massive differentiation
[01:22:10] and that as a marketer is what you look
[01:22:13] for that's nirvana because then you can
[01:22:15] exploit that you're not in the sea of
[01:22:17] sameness trying to beat everybody else
[01:22:19] in features and benefits or price and so
[01:22:23] Um,
[01:22:24] I can't believe how happy I am and how
[01:22:28] much fun I'm having. But I've had the
[01:22:30] blessing of having to reinvent myself. I
[01:22:32] mean, when I was 53, so I'm 63 now, uh,
[01:22:37] almost 64. When I came back to town, I
[01:22:40] had run four companies. I had been in
[01:22:44] two Fortune 100 companies. I was 53, a
[01:22:48] white guy
[01:22:51] without a degree. Well, that's none of
[01:22:54] those things actually are things that
[01:22:57] people are looking for. And you'd go,
[01:22:58] "Well, yeah, but you've run four
[01:23:00] companies." That's actually a strike
[01:23:02] against you unless you are part of a
[01:23:04] portfolio like a private equity group
[01:23:08] that is looking for somebody with that
[01:23:10] specific thing. and they're usually
[01:23:13] looking for somebody that's got an
[01:23:14] advanced degree from a known place that
[01:23:17] they they you've been in their circle.
[01:23:19] So, that's a really tough place to break
[01:23:21] in. Even though I had worked in in
[01:23:24] private equity
[01:23:26] and I'm like I I just have to be
[01:23:29] scrappy, you know, like bring value.
[01:23:33] Now, one thing that I've seen is like if
[01:23:35] you come with batteries installed where
[01:23:38] you don't have to be wound up and told
[01:23:40] and pointed in the direction of what to
[01:23:42] do and now what boss if you can actually
[01:23:45] figure out and solve problems and
[01:23:48] address them before you have to raise
[01:23:50] the flag like hey uh here's a problem.
[01:23:54] Yeah. What are you going to do about it?
[01:23:55] You know, if you can come with solutions
[01:23:57] and you play well with others,
[01:24:00] you have a massive and if you have a
[01:24:02] work ethic, oh my goodness, I did not
[01:24:05] know how
[01:24:08] lacking that that is in the marketplace.
[01:24:11] Well, and and so what I would say is
[01:24:14] like I mean my resume was getting
[01:24:18] rejected already by a lot of the
[01:24:20] automaton like sifting you know programs
[01:24:24] out there is
[01:24:25] >> now it's even worse right
[01:24:26] >> now it's really now it's really bad
[01:24:28] >> it's really bad so forget about it
[01:24:31] was it was developing relationships with
[01:24:34] people solving problems and helping them
[01:24:36] with no strings that has served me
[01:24:39] extremely well but Yeah, it's a it can
[01:24:41] be a long and lonely road,
[01:24:45] but you got to figure out like how do I,
[01:24:49] you know, and that's like the second
[01:24:51] weapon in my book is called Thrive
[01:24:53] Wither, and it's about it's a T-chart.
[01:24:56] It's not about your strengths and
[01:24:58] weaknesses. It's about what makes you
[01:24:59] come alive versus what drains your tank.
[01:25:03] And if you can really get serious about
[01:25:05] the stuff that makes you come alive,
[01:25:08] there you go. the thrive wither exercise
[01:25:11] and it's a really bonehead simple thing.
[01:25:14] I mean, I had to do it when I had to
[01:25:15] leave my own firm, like, you know, at
[01:25:18] whopping what was I 33, something like
[01:25:21] that, 32. Um, at least
[01:25:26] I had enough sense to know like, all
[01:25:29] right, where do I bring value? What do I
[01:25:32] love to do? What do I not love to do?
[01:25:34] Because if you are doing stuff that
[01:25:37] you're good at, but you're not creating
[01:25:39] joy and you're not energized by it,
[01:25:42] >> it's like it's a struggle.
[01:25:44] >> Yes, it will.
[01:25:45] >> I mean, and you will not over like you
[01:25:48] can't overcome it.
[01:25:49] >> Um, you can you can make it through the
[01:25:52] first pay cycle or so, but you can't
[01:25:55] fake it till you make it forever. Like,
[01:25:59] >> it'll it'll take you down. There's a
[01:26:01] part of that that I get, you know, when
[01:26:03] we're doing something new, you don't
[01:26:05] necessarily have to let everybody know,
[01:26:07] hey, this is my first time doing it, you
[01:26:09] know, like doing television commercials.
[01:26:12] I remember thinking like,
[01:26:15] this is my first time doing this and but
[01:26:18] they're hiring me as if I know what I'm
[01:26:20] doing. So, you just do your best, right?
[01:26:24] So there there's not necessarily a time,
[01:26:27] you know, for the surgeon to announce
[01:26:30] before you go under general anesthesia.
[01:26:32] Oh, by the way, this is my first one.
[01:26:34] >> My first one. [laughter]
[01:26:36] >> But at the same time, I feel like, you
[01:26:37] know, a guy like you, a guy like me
[01:26:40] that's going to just give it your all,
[01:26:41] give it your best, you're probably going
[01:26:44] to be
[01:26:45] >> better than average. I mean, what's been
[01:26:48] your experience in those scenarios where
[01:26:50] you you're you know, you're going in
[01:26:52] first time ever doing anything?
[01:26:54] Yeah, I think um sometimes it's by
[01:26:59] somebody drawing you into it and like
[01:27:01] you just got to do it like the need is
[01:27:03] there.
[01:27:05] And if if you focus,
[01:27:08] this is where weapon number four comes
[01:27:10] in that's so powerful. Focus more on
[01:27:12] serving somebody than how they are
[01:27:16] perceiving you. Hm. If we focus on the
[01:27:19] task at hand and serving somebody, we
[01:27:22] are getting our eyes off of oursel and
[01:27:24] our own inadequacies.
[01:27:26] That's a huge one. Huge one. And so I
[01:27:31] like I I re resort many many times to
[01:27:34] that. Like just focus.
[01:27:38] It doesn't matter. And and yeah, we all
[01:27:40] want to be perceived well and all that,
[01:27:42] but at the end of the day, it really
[01:27:43] doesn't matter, you know, um what
[01:27:46] somebody thinks, like did I give it my
[01:27:48] best, you know, am I
[01:27:51] >> right? I I I feel like and maybe that
[01:27:54] was a good lesson I learned from my
[01:27:55] mother cuz my mother was always striving
[01:27:59] to do better, to do better, to do
[01:28:01] better. And she's like, I compete with
[01:28:03] myself. I'm not comparing myself to
[01:28:05] somebody else.
[01:28:06] >> I'm trying to beat myself. I know where
[01:28:08] my bar is and I want to go next level up
[01:28:12] and keep upgrading.
[01:28:13] >> That's some great wisdom from from your
[01:28:15] mom, you know. That's some great wisdom
[01:28:17] and awareness. I think um I think we'd
[01:28:21] all be better off if we focused on that.
[01:28:25] And uh
[01:28:26] >> yeah, I remember I had a coach one time
[01:28:28] and he was giving me crap about Strava
[01:28:30] and he's like, "Why do you do that
[01:28:31] Strava? Like what does that matter? Why
[01:28:32] do you why do you waste your time?
[01:28:33] You're not going to be in the I
[01:28:35] cyclist." So he's like, "You're not
[01:28:36] going to be in a tour to France." I'm
[01:28:38] like, "No, dude. You're not." And his
[01:28:40] guy's a coach. I'm like, "You're not
[01:28:41] getting it. I just want to better
[01:28:42] myself." He goes, "There's going to come
[01:28:44] a point where you can't better
[01:28:45] yourself." And I'll go, "So fine. I'll
[01:28:47] see how close I can keep up with my PRs,
[01:28:49] you know, when
[01:28:50] >> Exactly. I mean, I like I loved Jack
[01:28:55] Lane. He was silly, you know, early on,
[01:28:58] like, you know, doing the chair one and
[01:29:00] two and and with the stretchy pants and
[01:29:02] all that, [laughter]
[01:29:04] but the dude, like, if you read about
[01:29:06] him, I think it was on his 80th birthday
[01:29:09] or something like that, he's pulling I
[01:29:12] can't remember how many boats in like uh
[01:29:16] the bay at in San Francisco,
[01:29:20] shackled with his arms with his hands
[01:29:22] and his feet shackled and he's swimming.
[01:29:26] pulling boats with his teeth. Well, he
[01:29:29] wasn't able to do
[01:29:31] as much as he could when he was 50
[01:29:34] probably or even 40, but dude, you know,
[01:29:37] like it's pretty amazing. So, yeah. So,
[01:29:41] at what point, you know, and I I look at
[01:29:45] Moses was 80 years old when he finally
[01:29:49] came into his real calling.
[01:29:52] Hey, he he delivered one person from an
[01:29:55] Egyptian
[01:29:57] uh and killed somebody and he has to
[01:29:59] flee into the wilderness. And by the
[01:30:02] way, shepherds were the most
[01:30:04] vile disregarded
[01:30:08] profession in the Egyptian culture at
[01:30:11] the time. And yet, and he was raised in
[01:30:14] Pharaoh's house. Like, it doesn't get
[01:30:15] any higher than that.
[01:30:17] And he gets to the point at 80 where he
[01:30:22] has no confidence in his ability to
[01:30:24] speak. And yet he's supposed to go and
[01:30:27] tell the pharaoh, "Hey, let my people
[01:30:29] go." Well, wait a minute. So, he is so
[01:30:33] ground down by that point. He's like,
[01:30:35] "Hey, God, how about Aaron? Like, you
[01:30:38] know, I [snorts] can't talk." And I felt
[01:30:40] that way many times, too. Like, I you
[01:30:42] know, who am I?
[01:30:45] But he came into his calling at age 80.
[01:30:48] And then he had 40 years of leading
[01:30:51] millions of people in some really tough
[01:30:54] circumstances. And some people that were
[01:30:56] extremely ungrateful. And in some ways
[01:30:59] like, hey, you got a reason like there's
[01:31:01] no water. I can understand why they'd be
[01:31:04] a little upset. Hey, there's no food. I
[01:31:07] could understand why they'd be a little
[01:31:08] upset. They had seen amazing things, but
[01:31:11] yet this guy really like he was a man's
[01:31:14] man. By the way, he at 120 when he died,
[01:31:18] it said his eyes had not dimmed and his
[01:31:21] strength had not abaded. Oh, that's
[01:31:23] pretty amazing. Um, but I I draw
[01:31:26] strength from people like that. Now, you
[01:31:28] know, Gary, you going to live to 120? I
[01:31:30] don't know. I mean, I each day is a
[01:31:32] gift, right?
[01:31:33] >> Absolutely.
[01:31:34] >> But I I want to live all in. Like I've
[01:31:37] got a good buddy that is a pastor of a
[01:31:42] really big church and and he got really
[01:31:45] screwed over by his his elders, but he's
[01:31:48] he's a man of integrity and he played
[01:31:50] for Dean Smith at UNCC Chapel Hill
[01:31:54] and I saw him at the track uh where I go
[01:31:57] work out and um he pulls me aside. He
[01:32:00] goes, "You know, Gary, I've been
[01:32:01] thinking about it and I don't want to
[01:32:04] rust out. I'm gonna flame out. And he's
[01:32:07] in his mid70s.
[01:32:10] He goes, I, you know, I don't think
[01:32:13] retirement is in the vocabulary. Like, I
[01:32:16] want to flame out. And I'm like, man,
[01:32:19] that's the way I want to live. That's
[01:32:20] >> exact same way. I don't
[01:32:22] >> I don't I don't have a pension or
[01:32:24] anything, but I'm not
[01:32:26] >> stressed over it because
[01:32:30] >> I just either I don't know
[01:32:33] >> what would I do. And kind of back you
[01:32:36] were talking about I guess it was his
[01:32:37] name was Phil was it that you worked
[01:32:39] with?
[01:32:39] >> Oh yeah, Philip. Philip
[01:32:40] >> like what is what are you gonna do? What
[01:32:42] are you gonna do when you sell this like
[01:32:44] how are you going to occupy your day?
[01:32:47] >> And um I'd totally agree with that. It's
[01:32:49] just uh it's not and that's part of the
[01:32:53] reason why I started this. This is kind
[01:32:55] of
[01:32:56] >> my answer to that.
[01:32:57] >> People's stories are cool. You know,
[01:32:59] everybody has a story
[01:33:01] >> and most stories actually never get out
[01:33:04] and get heard and I thought this was a
[01:33:06] cool way to do it and recorded. I mean,
[01:33:08] I have I think 193 followers and I've
[01:33:11] actually had some people come to me and
[01:33:13] go, you know, why you bother?
[01:33:15] >> I'm like 193 subscribers and I get like
[01:33:19] maybe I don't know I've had I think as
[01:33:21] over a hundred views sometimes. I'm
[01:33:22] like, I guess for me, I go, imagine
[01:33:26] stepping into the auditorium at the
[01:33:27] local public library and it can hold 200
[01:33:30] people and it's 3/4 full and you can
[01:33:32] stand in front and tell your story to
[01:33:34] them.
[01:33:35] >> Yeah, that's cool.
[01:33:36] >> That's pretty amazing. And, you know,
[01:33:38] for those that only get 10 or 20 views,
[01:33:40] imagine going to a,
[01:33:42] >> you know, a Starbucks and having a
[01:33:44] little public meetup at a Starbucks and
[01:33:47] attracting 15 or 20 people and being
[01:33:49] able to speak to them. I go, "These
[01:33:52] numbers are actually pretty large.
[01:33:53] They're not small."
[01:33:55] >> Um, I'm not, you know, maybe someday
[01:33:57] there'll be a million. I don't know. Who
[01:33:59] knows? Don't really care. I to me to me,
[01:34:03] in my opinion, I'm already been
[01:34:04] successful in what I've already
[01:34:06] achieved. And it's not very much. And it
[01:34:08] wasn't I mean, yeah, it's been some
[01:34:10] effort, but it's um
[01:34:13] >> uh
[01:34:14] >> the Roadcaster 2 isn't free. They don't
[01:34:16] give those things away. We got one of
[01:34:17] them not too. They don't give them away.
[01:34:20] >> No, they don't. I mean, but oh my god,
[01:34:22] does that level the playing field?
[01:34:25] >> Oh, yeah.
[01:34:26] >> Between that and then we're playing
[01:34:28] around with the script and with uh
[01:34:30] Riverside and that might uh actually
[01:34:33] even
[01:34:34] >> streamline things a bit more as well.
[01:34:36] Um, but uh I was just curious, you know,
[01:34:40] um, you know, I know you do this
[01:34:43] coaching and and how
[01:34:46] like you've kind of referenced it a
[01:34:48] little bit already just with your own
[01:34:49] story. I mean, you're a partner in a CPA
[01:34:52] firm, yet you have this podcast and you
[01:34:54] have this coaching business.
[01:34:56] >> Yeah. Um, how do you how do you build a
[01:34:58] business that works, you know, not only
[01:35:01] for the business but works for the,
[01:35:04] you know, like for you and and make that
[01:35:08] happen?
[01:35:08] >> What What do you How do you
[01:35:10] >> Well, I think you got to start with your
[01:35:11] Thrive Wither, you know,
[01:35:13] >> the Thrive Rither. Back to that.
[01:35:15] >> What do you What do you love to do? And
[01:35:18] >> um because I was 100% commission.
[01:35:22] Hey, you know, if I don't bring in
[01:35:25] sales, I don't eat. And if I bring in uh
[01:35:29] too much and they can't pay me, which
[01:35:31] that's happened because they're like,
[01:35:33] uh, we don't have the money to pay you.
[01:35:36] Okay. Um, then put it on my my tab, you
[01:35:40] know, owe me at some point, whatever.
[01:35:43] But like, I'm in purpose, man. I love
[01:35:46] what I do. I I have a huge passion for
[01:35:50] privately held businesses and their
[01:35:52] owners and entrepreneurs because having
[01:35:55] worked in publicly traded companies and
[01:35:58] having run companies where even in this
[01:36:02] firm where as owners we went without
[01:36:05] paying ourselves so that we could make
[01:36:06] payroll more than once. As you're
[01:36:10] growing you're stuck,
[01:36:12] >> you know, like that's just how it works.
[01:36:15] >> Yeah. And you know, you have to explain
[01:36:17] to your spouse like, "Yeah, um, you
[01:36:19] know, we are not paying ourselves right
[01:36:22] now. We will, Lord willing, but you
[01:36:25] know, but if you're in purpose and
[01:36:29] you're not defining yourself by what you
[01:36:31] do, but really like playing in what you
[01:36:36] love to do
[01:36:38] and serving people and getting your eyes
[01:36:41] off of yourself. I mean, man, that
[01:36:43] that's that's a great life. And so that
[01:36:47] uniqueness be and and it was lonely,
[01:36:50] too, coming in here because, you know,
[01:36:51] it's like, who's this dude? You know,
[01:36:54] all the other guys that were supposed to
[01:36:56] bring in sales didn't. So, I guess we'll
[01:36:58] give him a few months and then he'll be
[01:37:00] out, too. Well, it didn't happen, but I
[01:37:03] knew like, you know, I
[01:37:04] >> What was your secret there? I'm curious.
[01:37:06] How'd you make it rain?
[01:37:07] >> The same thing that I've always done.
[01:37:10] live to serve people first freely
[01:37:12] without trying to sell them something. I
[01:37:14] saw differentiation here. I saw that
[01:37:17] like these guys. So now we're about just
[01:37:22] under 90 people. 14 of us have started,
[01:37:25] run or turn around companies with our
[01:37:28] money. That is so atypical it's not even
[01:37:30] funny. You will not find that in a CPA
[01:37:33] firm because of the people that are
[01:37:35] drawn to it. They're high S, high C
[01:37:37] people in the DISC profile. Introverts
[01:37:39] more than extroverts. They start at the
[01:37:42] bottom, kind of sift their way up, and
[01:37:44] then, hey, you get to buy in as a
[01:37:46] partner, now you got to go sell, and now
[01:37:48] you can see blue sky because you're no
[01:37:50] longer in the bowels of the ship. That
[01:37:53] is not the same as when you go and risk
[01:37:56] it and you put your money on the line
[01:37:58] and you're paying everybody else before
[01:38:00] you pay yourself. That's a way different
[01:38:02] thing. I saw that difference here. So,
[01:38:05] I'm like, "Dude, I got to know these
[01:38:08] guys for a year before I came in here,
[01:38:10] and I was coaching full-time, but
[01:38:12] coaching is very lonely." So, I'm like,
[01:38:14] "Hey, what if I bring in my coaching
[01:38:17] thing and I run bisdev for you because
[01:38:20] nobody's nobody knows who you guys are."
[01:38:24] >> Yeah. Well, security,
[01:38:26] >> right? And and so I see patterns. I see
[01:38:30] opportunities. I see problems. problem
[01:38:32] is nobody knows who you are, but you're
[01:38:34] really good.
[01:38:36] Oh, you know, so
[01:38:39] you know, to your friends that are are
[01:38:42] sending out
[01:38:43] teen resumes, and I've done that, and I
[01:38:45] never got hired from any of those. Go
[01:38:47] out and meet with people, hear their
[01:38:50] stories,
[01:38:52] let them know what you're looking to do,
[01:38:57] raw awareness. But that's really what
[01:39:00] I've done. And so listen, think think
[01:39:02] about this. So I start in June of 2019,
[01:39:05] June 3rd to be exact.
[01:39:08] We go into lockdown in March. March the
[01:39:11] 13th was the last day of 2020. And I was
[01:39:15] trying to meet with somebody five day,
[01:39:17] five times a day. That was my goal. Five
[01:39:20] times a day meet with somebody just, you
[01:39:22] know, let them raise awareness, not ask
[01:39:24] them, hey, you know, bring your stuff
[01:39:26] over here and let us do your taxes and
[01:39:28] everything else. No, it was just like,
[01:39:30] "Hey, you know, help me understand
[01:39:32] what's going on because I know that the
[01:39:34] bar is extremely low in our industry.
[01:39:36] Like
[01:39:38] people because they're more introverted
[01:39:40] than not, they don't res respond well.
[01:39:42] They don't they don't return phone
[01:39:44] calls. They aren't proactive. They
[01:39:46] aren't bringing amazing advice. We find
[01:39:48] multiples of our fees. So ROI is a big
[01:39:52] language for us, like do we bring a
[01:39:54] return on investment or not? And if not,
[01:39:57] I'll and if we're not the right fit,
[01:39:59] I'll send you to somebody and I don't
[01:40:01] get a dime back for the referral, but I
[01:40:03] want you to be taken care of. I don't
[01:40:05] want you to spend the night in the
[01:40:06] public square and hope that you don't
[01:40:08] get, you know, bad things happening to
[01:40:11] you. I'm like, all right, I'll take care
[01:40:12] of you serving. It's a long hall.
[01:40:16] >> Oh, it's long tail, right? It's not
[01:40:18] going to be overnight,
[01:40:20] >> but it builds. And when you know when
[01:40:23] people when you serve them well and you
[01:40:27] own your mistakes and you you really
[01:40:30] have their best interest in mind, it
[01:40:32] happens. Like it happens. And so that's
[01:40:35] what's happened here. Um you know, and
[01:40:38] it's given me and I'm still I probably
[01:40:41] work more hours than anybody else in
[01:40:43] this company. Um why? Well, my kids are
[01:40:47] grown grown and my grandkids aren't in
[01:40:49] the same town and my wife is okay with
[01:40:52] it. But like I love I'm writing
[01:40:55] every day, you know. I spend a couple
[01:40:57] hours a day just reacting and commenting
[01:41:01] on LinkedIn and writing and doing stupid
[01:41:04] cold plunge musings and you know playing
[01:41:07] around with AI and doing tattoo Tuesdays
[01:41:10] from a dyslexic tattooist you know like
[01:41:14] what does that have to do with
[01:41:16] accounting? Nothing. But I thought man I
[01:41:19] got to I got to explore AI. So I've done
[01:41:22] vibe coding. I created an app that was
[01:41:25] going to cost us 50 grand minimum. I got
[01:41:28] 50 to 100 grand for a sales activity
[01:41:31] tracker that we had used before. Then it
[01:41:34] it got moth balled. We couldn't buy it.
[01:41:36] So I'm like, "All right, I'm going to
[01:41:39] recreate it." And we've got 18 AI people
[01:41:43] in our company as part of Ascend, but
[01:41:46] they're boiling the ocean. And you know,
[01:41:48] I don't have time for them to get to my
[01:41:50] little project, so I'm going to figure
[01:41:52] it out. and I go to people that know
[01:41:55] what the heck they're doing, get their
[01:41:57] advice, and I start building, you know,
[01:41:59] like bring value. That's really what I
[01:42:03] want to do is I want to bring value. And
[01:42:04] like I can't wait to wake up every
[01:42:06] morning. I like I can't wait to go see
[01:42:09] my people and go do my thing. And I'm
[01:42:12] not trying to be like one of them. I
[01:42:14] don't want to be an accountant. I'd be
[01:42:16] terrible at it. I've had good ones and
[01:42:19] I've had bad ones. like,
[01:42:20] >> well, I feel like that approach is
[01:42:22] really strong in the sense that I mean,
[01:42:24] if you actually get down to sales 101,
[01:42:26] right?
[01:42:27] >> Um, I don't know how many times I've
[01:42:29] heard this. People buy from people that
[01:42:31] they know, like, and, trust.
[01:42:33] >> Yep, that's right.
[01:42:34] >> It's not about people trying to Did you
[01:42:36] hear anything in that that says they buy
[01:42:39] from people they try to sell them?
[01:42:41] >> No,
[01:42:42] >> it's not in that list of things. No,
[01:42:44] it's
[01:42:45] >> you know I I know for a fact that I've
[01:42:47] been hired to do photography
[01:42:50] when I was probably not the best person
[01:42:53] to do it. And I even tried to refer them
[01:42:56] out to a friend of mine for this
[01:42:58] particular photography type style and
[01:43:02] they're like, "Nope, I want to hire
[01:43:04] you." I'm like, "Are you sure? Here's
[01:43:06] this person's website. Go take a look at
[01:43:08] their portfolio. It's probably better
[01:43:10] than mine because I don't even have a
[01:43:11] portfolio to show you on what you want.
[01:43:13] and they have dozens of photos that are
[01:43:16] amazing
[01:43:18] and nope, I want to hire you. And why do
[01:43:20] they want to hire me? Because they know,
[01:43:21] like, and trust me. And did I deliver
[01:43:23] for him? I did. Did I do as good as this
[01:43:27] other person? Honestly, probably not.
[01:43:30] But, you know, they were happy. And I
[01:43:32] mean, I you know how it is with design
[01:43:34] and creative. There's a certain bar you
[01:43:36] got to hit and I'm hitting the bar. I'm
[01:43:39] probably going above the bar. So, it's
[01:43:41] okay. And that's part of that imposter
[01:43:43] syndrome too, right? You know, are you
[01:43:45] at least meeting the bar of expectation
[01:43:48] in the commercial world and that's at
[01:43:51] least what I tell myself, you know, are
[01:43:53] I do headshot photography. Am I the best
[01:43:55] headshot photographer in the world? No,
[01:43:57] by a long shot. Am I right there up
[01:44:00] there? And you know, there's the
[01:44:01] amateurs are down here.
[01:44:03] >> Then there's people that are formerly
[01:44:05] trained photographers here. There's
[01:44:07] people that have been actually trained
[01:44:08] and took some classes on how to do
[01:44:09] headshot photography. They're probably
[01:44:11] there. That's kind of where I'm at. Then
[01:44:12] there's a guy that practice a lot more
[01:44:14] than me and they're here. And there's
[01:44:15] the guys that are, you know, the best in
[01:44:16] the
[01:44:18] >> country in the world are up here and I'm
[01:44:19] I'm like right here. Whereas, you know,
[01:44:21] if you took a Shelfie, you're going to
[01:44:22] be down here.
[01:44:23] >> So, you know, just by nature of my
[01:44:26] experience and education, I'm going to
[01:44:28] meet the bar.
[01:44:29] >> I think it took me a long time to get
[01:44:31] that through my head. It was a really
[01:44:34] tough thing. Your book actually helped
[01:44:35] with that, too. I think it really and I
[01:44:38] you know it actually even goes back to
[01:44:40] this even and I'm glad you wrote the
[01:44:42] book because to me writing the book
[01:44:43] means you actually really believe it
[01:44:45] because how many books address this that
[01:44:47] are out there? Probably a few um
[01:44:52] see one um which is why I wrote it. Um,
[01:44:56] it actually the reason I wrote it was a
[01:44:59] woman I was coaching who had 10,000
[01:45:01] employees said, "Gary, I don't know what
[01:45:02] I'm doing." And she is a good CEO. She's
[01:45:06] one of only two people I name by name in
[01:45:08] that book. Tana Green. But I said, "Ta,
[01:45:12] I think this is uh imposttor syndrome."
[01:45:14] She goes, "Yeah, you're right." But but
[01:45:16] I I said, "Well, why would you say
[01:45:18] that?" She said, "I only have a two-year
[01:45:19] secretarial degree."
[01:45:21] Ah,
[01:45:23] >> yeah. You to you totally related to
[01:45:25] that.
[01:45:26] >> Yeah, totally. And um
[01:45:29] at least she had a degree. I didn't even
[01:45:31] have a secretarial degree. I had just
[01:45:33] two years of college.
[01:45:34] >> Yeah. You didn't have an actual degree.
[01:45:35] Just had the credits towards a degree.
[01:45:38] >> So, you know, it a lot of people deal
[01:45:41] with it. Um
[01:45:43] >> so, you wrote this book. We mentioned it
[01:45:45] a few times. I'll put a link to it. It's
[01:45:46] on Amazon, right?
[01:45:48] >> Yep. That's the only place you can find
[01:45:49] it.
[01:45:50] >> That's where you can get it. So, I'll
[01:45:51] put that down in the description. And
[01:45:54] then I do have a sponsor now. It's uh my
[01:45:57] wife my wife's going to start a
[01:45:59] business. So, it was really hard to
[01:46:02] sell.
[01:46:03] >> It's called Maya Soap. So, this episode
[01:46:06] is supported by Maya Soap, a company
[01:46:07] that my wife is in the very early stages
[01:46:10] of launching. We have the domain. If you
[01:46:12] go there, there's nothing there yet. Uh
[01:46:14] it's built the idea around that simple
[01:46:16] well-made things still matter. We're
[01:46:18] offering a limited number of
[01:46:19] complimentary bars to people that engage
[01:46:21] directly to conversation. There's no
[01:46:22] form to fill out. There's only one way
[01:46:24] to get it. We'll put an address. You
[01:46:26] have to send me a postcard. Yeah, I know
[01:46:28] I'm making it sticky.
[01:46:30] >> But you're going to have to want it.
[01:46:31] You're going to have to want it. And I
[01:46:32] like getting mail. So, [laughter]
[01:46:35] >> there you go. Uh if if you uh liked
[01:46:40] Gary's perspective, if that resonated
[01:46:41] with you and want to learn more about
[01:46:43] his work, you can find him on Am I
[01:46:45] getting the swipe? BGW.CPA.
[01:46:49] >> No, it's trust. I'm sorry. BGW.com.
[01:46:52] So, trustbgw.
[01:46:55] >> Oh, say it one more time.
[01:46:56] >> Yeah. Trust sbgw.com.
[01:47:00] >> And also through the anything but
[01:47:02] typical podcast which you can see there.
[01:47:06] >> And uh this conversation was valuable to
[01:47:09] you, please like, comment, subscribe,
[01:47:10] share it with somebody that would
[01:47:12] appreciate it. Uh, go ahead and reach
[01:47:14] out to Gary. Anything Anything Is
[01:47:16] Typical. I'm sure you'll like his
[01:47:18] episodes. I've watched a few. They've
[01:47:20] been, uh, very informative and, uh, it
[01:47:22] helps the show reach the right people.
[01:47:24] And yes, I do read the comments. Gary, I
[01:47:27] want to thank you. Really appreciate
[01:47:28] your time today. And, uh,
[01:47:30] >> thanks, man.
[01:47:31] >> This was a lot of fun. And then
[01:47:33] hopefully it was a little bit different
[01:47:34] than other podcasts you've been on.
[01:47:36] >> Yeah, this was fun, man. Um, Kurt, it
[01:47:39] was great meeting you on LinkedIn
[01:47:41] actually years ago. and thanks for
[01:47:43] having me on this thing. I really
[01:47:44] appreciate it.
[01:47:46] >> Okay, maybe we can maybe you can invite
[01:47:48] me over to the Anything But Typical. I
[01:47:51] still like to stop by in person
[01:47:52] sometime. And I I still have this idea I
[01:47:56] still have this idea of a cold plunge uh
[01:47:59] a dual coal plunge situation. [laughter]
[01:48:03] I don't know if I'm doing 33 degrees,
[01:48:05] though, Gary. [laughter]
[01:48:06] >> I'm not sure about that one.
[01:48:08] >> Comparison kills gratitude. Just
[01:48:10] remember that, Kirk.
[01:48:11] >> Okay. All right. All right. Thanks,
[01:48:13] Gary. Really appreciate you.
[01:48:15] >> All right. Byebye. Get to your [music]